Extraction Issue - 223 Chamber

Your gun may be overgassed. A good clue for that are the ripped case rims. It is not unheard of DPMS having incorrect gas port sizes. A few years ago their Kitty-Kats had gas ports drilled too small. Or were they too big??

You may have a tight chamber too. Add gunk and your chamber gets smaller. Epps measured it? OK I'm sold.

If you don't have a chromed lined chamber, combined with the gunking you will experience rougher extractions.

I know you tried a different BCG, but an of spec extractor is a possibility. So is a worn buffer spring.

Maybe stacking of a whole lot of little things in your gun.

I'm throwing at you everything that comes to mind. Maybe I'll hit something of value, maybe I'm nutz.

I'd still go with at least a D-ring and extra power extractor spring. Maybe even a new quality extractor. (not that I'm trying to sell you one or anything. Don't have any more). I've found several DPMS parts that were out of spec in my travels. Some quite noticeable to the eye.
 
Epps didn't measure it, they checked it with a bore scope and saw no concerns.

As for the gas port, perhaps it has eroded bigger over time? The gun is used but the previous owner has reported no problems. Of course he was using a different load with a heavier bullet. If I can find some 75 Gn BTHP I will try that too.

The barrel is stainless, I don't know if the chamber is chrome lined but I doubt it. I figure it must be tight or I would not be having these problems. Again, my Norc chews through the 25.3Gn loads like nothing.

When I tried the different BCG I did it the easy way...I grabbed my complete Norc one and through it in.

I can't see changing out the extractor if the one I have is damaging the rims now. At least I have a complete case to push out, if I pull the base right of than I am really screwed.

This really frustrating cause this just should not be happening.
 
Your extractor could be damaging the rim because it's not grabbing very well but slipping off, yet leaving behind deception marks on the rims. That's why I'm still bent on the D-ring and extractor spring.

I certainly sympathize with your frustration. It is somewhat of a challenge and a good learning curve when you figure it out. And you will.
 
In case somebody will see something that I am missing, here are the cases damaged yesterday

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DSC01153.jpg


Do these look like they are caused by an extractor not fully engaging?

For the last round I fired yesterday I hammered pretty hard on the forward assist to make sure the bolt was seated as best I could get it, in case this was an issue. Same result.
 
Progress....I think

Back to the range today to test some working RL15 loads, working up to the "max" of 23 Gn. Moving from 22.6 Gn to 23.0 Gn velocities averaged 2526 - 2596 (3 shots). Groups varied from 0.96 - 1.35 inches @ 100. Not exactly spectacular.

I also loaded some 55 Gn bullets with RL15 working up to 26.5 Gn (27.0 Gn started filling above the bottom of the case neck so I quit there). I fired one round at each charge up to this max and no issues with function at all. Hmmm

Then I looked at 68 Gn bullets again with IMR 3031. I was trying to prove that there as a problem with the gun and it would not handle max pressure. I loaded one round each at 21.0,21.5, 22.0, 22.5 per my manual for 69 Gn bullets. All functioned fine with velocities of 2750, 2830, 2912 and 2941. Book max velocity is 2906 so I am in the right ball park there I think. And the last three rounds, (1.5 Gn charge spread) grouped 0.85 inches.

So all I can conclude is that this particular rifle does not like RL15 pushing at 68 Gn bullet. Odd but one of those things I guess? I'm not sure that I understand. I am guessing the pressure curve for that powder-bullet combo is just wrong for the rifle?

Anyway, I am going to try shooting groups with IMR 3031 to see how things go. That particular grouping could be sheer coincidence as I was not taking great care of aim. I will also probably look at other suggested powders such as Varget and W748 to see if the problem is just an RL15 issue.

For now, fingers crossed for IMR 3031 I guess. Any reason to be concerned about this powder? Is it very temperature sensitive? I know it doesn't meter well but I weigh charges most of the time and I won't likely be loading this high volume, at least for now.
 
Glad to see that with IMR3031 the problem has been resolved. This powder has been one of the "originals" for the 5.56 and I believe that a large fraction of the military loads with 55 gr bullets were loaded with IMR 3031. It's a single-base powder and, as such, is not all that sensitive to temperature variations. I think in the .223 with 62-69 gr bullets is slightly faster than Re15 and you also use less of it, which may explain why you have no early extraction problems, less pressure at the gas ports than the slower and larger charge Re15.
 
Maybe there's a reason why Hornady doesn't list a load for 68 g BTHP with RL15.

It doesn't list 3031 either, and RL 15 works fine in my Norc and my buddies Colt HBar.

One one hand, I want to know why RL15 does not work in my rifle :bangHead:.....but my practical side says shut up and shoot 3031 or something else. I'm going to go with door number 2 on this one.

See, and folks thought that Engineers couldn't be practical :D
 
Bolivar,

It sounds like you have avoided the problem, not found a solution. Which may be good enough for you. After reading the entire thread, my curiosity is piqued.

Simple solutions first. Have you tried a different Batch of the R 15? or tried that same batch of R 15 in a different load in a different gun to see if it performs as expected?

I don't think there is anything wrong with your extractor. It is doing its job. The damaged case rims are a result of the cases themselves holding on to the chambers tighter and longer than they should. The Brass is the weak link in the system by design, and is supposed to be the first one to fail. Since the extraction fails almost immediately when the rim rips off allowing the extractor to let go, the FTE is a symptom of an EARLIER cause. Tinkering with the extractor will only hide or aggrevate the problem.

The original riddle of why mag feeding causes problems, but not single loading is interesting to me.

If the ONLY variable that reveals the problem is the feeding, then the solution must address it before before or during the feeding process. Everything afterwards, like overgassing, is likely just a symptom.

I don't think a feeding problem should drive one to tinker with the gas port. Like the extractor, it works fine with other ammo. The relationship between this particular load and gun is the problem. Its far easier, cheaper and faster to tinker with the ammo.

If you are single loading with a Mag fitted, then clearly the resistance on the mag or the magazine itself is not the problem.

The difference in cycle speed between chambering a loose round and having to push a round out of a mag is significant, but if you used the forward assist to ensure it is properly seated, than its hard to see how that could matter.

Is there any chance that your rounds are being subjected to too much recoil in the magazine? You did a test to determine if chambering sets back the bullets, but what about recoil? Try this. Make up about 20 loads that you know to be of a safe pressure. Load three rounds into a mag and fire one. The second should get picked up by the action. Remove the mag and load another on top before firing again. Do this 10 to 15 times. This way the round at the bottom of the mag will stay at the bottom and after its been subjected to 10 or 15 recoils measure to see if its been set back. That recoil effect is cumulative, and is only a matter of time before it causes an overpressure. You know your crimp is fine when you are using 10 round mags and it takes MORE than 10 firings for the recoil to affect the rounds. Ideally 100 recoils would not move your bullets, but thats an expensive test.
Or Alternatively, try loading just one round into the mag and firing. Do this for your entire work up test. If you get past the grain count where the problem happened before, It could be the recoil.

You mentioned that once you had one FTE, the next round in the mag would also FTE.

QUESTION. Would you then to try re-fire that round which was rammed into the unejected case?
You tested your crimp with dummy rounds to see if the crimp was tight enough, but that was with an empty chamber. Do you have any idea how much additional force is applied to that bullet when its travel into the chamber is stopped two full inches early. Try that doing that test. I think you'll find that your bullets will be seated deeper. This does not, however, explain why the first one failed to extract.

Try measuring the diameter of the case at the mouth after its been fired. Comparing the stuck cases to the cases that ejected properly may reveal another clue. I can't remember if you said you'd measured them for length or not? any difference?

Lastly, I just checked my relative burn rate chart, and I suspect that R 17 is too slow a burning powder for the 68 gr bullets. This may explain why the 3031 works better, and why Hornady doesn't give data for it.

The issues already addressed by everyone may just be what happens when you use a powder that is too slow.
 
Avoided vs solved. Yes, maybe or solved. Don't know with out more shooting which will happen over the next couple of months.

The single feed vs mag feed thing still baffles me but my last trip to the range with RL15 and 68 Gn resulted if FTE all the time, single loaded too. Still don't know why but I actually took the consistent failure to be an improvement.

As for different batches of RL15, yeah maybe but I don't feel like investing more time and components in that combo for now.

Rounds being subjected to recoil? The first round out of every mag FTE, not the second or other. I am not going to bother with more esting on this. Further work yesterday showed the gun functioning fine and I use the same crimp set up with my 55 Gn CQB loads. These have cycled hundreds of rounds with no issue.

Neck diameter of fired cases checked out to 0.002 above unfired. Length of the brass was pretty much unchanged (stretch shows up on sizing usually anyway).

For now, my conclusion matches yours. In this combo, RL15 is to slow for THIS rifle. The function fine in my Norc (carbine length gas system) and nearly the same charge (24.9) and bullet work in a buddies Colt Hbar (rifle length gas system)

For now I am going to move ahead with powders other than RL15. I am not going to beat that dead horse any more.....for now. I have a total evidence of 4 rounds with 68 Gn bullets and IMR 3031 working. I may find more issues in the future, but hopefully not. In the short term, I am hoping for good accuracy and continued functioning so I can focus on getting rounds to hit the POA.

For now I like this rifle again, crossing my fingers that this does not change.
 
I'd put money on it being your chamber.
I went out and bought a pound of RL15 to give it a shot. I'll report back my findings...won't be for several weeks though.
 
Beltfed, I know the RL15 loads work in at least two other ARs

There you go then, you've answered part of your original question.

You need to compare apples to apples now - what are the chambers like in the rifles that shoot those loads fine? What is yours like? what is the OAL of the rounds to the rifling like in all the rifles? (maybe yours has way less leade).
What are velocities of the loads out of all of the different barrels?

Is your barrel new? Have you recently changed or mucked about with the gas block?
Did you send a couple of hundred rounds of factory through it since having extraction issues?



You could be right about the chamber having issues still.

If everything else is working fine, this is my guess. I've had a number of chambers that gave fte issues until they 'broke in' on a few hundred rounds with some liberal spinning of brillo pad on a section of cleaning rod in a cordless drill in the interm.

In any event, I'm curious to see what all the fuss is over RL-15.
 
There you go then, you've answered part of your original question.


You need to compare apples to apples now - what are the chambers like in the rifles that shoot those loads fine? What is yours like? what is the OAL of the rounds to the rifling like in all the rifles? (maybe yours has way less leade).

Possible, but I was getting the same-ish velocities with 3031, with the same OAL

What are velocities of the loads out of all of the different barrels?

Don't know, they are all different lenghts. My DPMS is 24, my Norc is 14 and buddies colt is 20. I'm not too interested right now is going back to re-chrono the load.

Is your barrel new? Have you recently changed or mucked about with the gas block?

No to both

Did you send a couple of hundred rounds of factory through it since having extraction issues?

No and I don't see much point. At that will do is drain my wallet IMO :)based on the fact that factory has worked in the past, as well as other hand load. I have not done enough shooting with the 3031 load yet to say for sure it will work well and function. That is a goal for this spring/summer.

I reserve the right to be proven wrong.


If everything else is working fine, this is my guess. I've had a number of chambers that gave fte issues until they 'broke in' on a few hundred rounds with some liberal spinning of brillo pad on a section of cleaning rod in a cordless drill in the interm.

Trust me, I thought about it.

In any event, I'm curious to see what all the fuss is over RL-15.

I'm not fussing over RL15. :) It was just the first power I tried with this bullet and it gave me a weird failure. RL15 works for others and has always been a go to powder for me. In this case though, it seems to not want to work in this rifle.

The object is not to make the rifle work with RL15 and 68 Gn bullets, the object is to develop a load that works in the rifle an puts bullets in the centre of the target, assuming that I don't screw up two bad on the back end of the rifle.:D
 
The object is not to make the rifle work with RL15 and 68 Gn bullets, the object is to develop a load that works in the rifle an puts bullets in the centre of the target, assuming that I don't screw up two bad on the back end of the rifle.:D

I agree. Sometimes the only logical thing to do is scratch your head and move on.
 
Okay, "final" result, after two trips to the gunsmith to have the chamber reamed.....I appear to have a working rifle again.

I shot about 25 rounds of my 3031 load through it this weekend and only one jam. Right in the middle of everything. I had no problem clearing it. For now I am going to chalk that up to an anomaly with the round. Further shooting should prove me right or wrong.

Now my load needs work. ES spreads of 160 fps are not going to cut it at any distance but I can work through that with time and reloading components.

At least I have a rifle worth working loads up for.
 
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