Well one of those disciplines gets zero sighters
And 10 sighters is awfully excessive. I figured with one sighter, let alone two sighters is more than enough to figure out the wind.
F Class OPEN Cartridge
- Thread starter remington jim
- Start date
Well one of those disciplines gets zero sighters
And 10 sighters is awfully excessive. I figured with one sighter, let alone two sighters is more than enough to figure out the wind.
I completely understand that, was just curious. I'm still not convinced a 6mm wouldn't work, but again, I know nothing of F-Open.
Just curious.
I have JC 6 and 4 groove barrels in 30cal, both shoot great/competitive.
My suggestion is to pick something that requires minimum messing around with brass for reloading, and easy to get good components for, unless you really like unicorn cartridges, some are into that.
FO are mostly looking for highest BC, and 7mm and 30cal bullets are where that's at now.
There's also a HUGE difference between shooting your benchrest group in 10-30 seconds while a condition holds and the advantages of a light caliber 6mm that doesn't rattle everything, vs laying down for 20-30+ minutes to get your bullets on target.
My suggestion is to pick something that requires minimum messing around with brass for reloading, and easy to get good components for, unless you really like unicorn cartridges, some are into that.
FO are mostly looking for highest BC, and 7mm and 30cal bullets are where that's at now.
There's also a HUGE difference between shooting your benchrest group in 10-30 seconds while a condition holds and the advantages of a light caliber 6mm that doesn't rattle everything, vs laying down for 20-30+ minutes to get your bullets on target.
The 284 win and it's wildcats dominate F-Open using 180 class bullets primary because it is an ideal combination of weight of bullet, velocity, barrel life, and acceptable recoil.
Once you vary from these parameters then your chances of winning decreases. There are other combo's that win on occasion but not consistently. A 6mm will win on calm days or with an exceptional driver but not when the winds come up. Same with a 300 short mag. The 210-230 bullet in a 300 again is better ballistically but very few people can shoot them well due to recoil. A 6.5 x 284 will also win but the barrel life is way too short so that you are using multiple barrels per season. There are always cartridges that are better in the various areas of bullet weights, velocity, barrel life or recoil.
It is the combo of features that makes the 284 dominate on a day in day out basis. Remember that F-Class is a aggregate game where multiple relays are shot over multiple days using in different conditions each day. Big matches can last 3-4 days.
The only combo that seems to be coming close is a 6.5 Creedmore/6.5 x 47 using a 146 - 162 grain bullet. Still a little light in the winds but it will get close to the 284's.
Also, the real winners are not shooting bullets fast in the 284's. It is only the internet and inexperienced shooters that recommend the high node velocities and they don't win.
Once you vary from these parameters then your chances of winning decreases. There are other combo's that win on occasion but not consistently. A 6mm will win on calm days or with an exceptional driver but not when the winds come up. Same with a 300 short mag. The 210-230 bullet in a 300 again is better ballistically but very few people can shoot them well due to recoil. A 6.5 x 284 will also win but the barrel life is way too short so that you are using multiple barrels per season. There are always cartridges that are better in the various areas of bullet weights, velocity, barrel life or recoil.
It is the combo of features that makes the 284 dominate on a day in day out basis. Remember that F-Class is a aggregate game where multiple relays are shot over multiple days using in different conditions each day. Big matches can last 3-4 days.
The only combo that seems to be coming close is a 6.5 Creedmore/6.5 x 47 using a 146 - 162 grain bullet. Still a little light in the winds but it will get close to the 284's.
Also, the real winners are not shooting bullets fast in the 284's. It is only the internet and inexperienced shooters that recommend the high node velocities and they don't win.
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We use 284win and 300wsm's because in fclass up here we shoot in pairs or triples. So it could be 30 sec to up to 2 mins inbetween shots (no string fire). I have seen up to 4 moa changes in that amount of time. You gotta be right on your game with a 6mm too keep up. The 7's and 30's can save you from dropping points. In a match dropping 1 point even can loose you a match. To shoot a clean relay at 1000 yards you need to keep 15 rounds inside a 10" circle. This game is completely different then PRS.
Hi RJ
Even though I play with various cartridges myself for my own knowledge, as you know, I still recommend only 2 cartridges for F-Open. These are a 6.5 x 47/6.5 CM or a straight 284. Bullets are easy at a 146 for the 6.5's using 1 in 8 twist barrels and 180's for the 284 using 1 in 9's.
The 6.5's are ideal for mid range matches while the 284's are ok for all ranges and better at long range.
Steve
Even though I play with various cartridges myself for my own knowledge, as you know, I still recommend only 2 cartridges for F-Open. These are a 6.5 x 47/6.5 CM or a straight 284. Bullets are easy at a 146 for the 6.5's using 1 in 8 twist barrels and 180's for the 284 using 1 in 9's.
The 6.5's are ideal for mid range matches while the 284's are ok for all ranges and better at long range.
Steve
KT
F-Class is one of the most demanding rifle sports there are. It demands attention to detail unprecedented for the entire process from load development, load manufacture, load tuning, bullet choice, rifle construction, barrel choice, scope choice, and shooting skills. If you fail in any then you are not competitive and will not place well. A simple primer change can and has expanded a group size and that can take you from winner to loser. Handloading skills are actually more important than shooting skills. Load development and testing is the same.
The cost of my rifles equal or exceed the PRS game rifles and my reloading equipment cost far exceeds the cost of my rifles!!! Going to a match with factory match ammo is a waste of time, effort, and money.
Your complete package of rifle, scope and load must shoot to 1/4 moa right out to 1000 yards to win and must maintain that level of accuracy through 25 round strings. Rifle barrels come off the line too hot to hold in the summer and you will get burns on your hands!!
One thing we also have found is that the highest priced gear does not always function correctly and is not the best. In some cases, the lowest priced stuff works far better so you must have an open mind in order to continually test to verify what is working. You can't be a fanboy of certain products or services because they all change over time and unless you are continually changing you will lose. This is why top F-Class shooters sometimes recommend equipment that don't seem to fit the norm. However, you can bet that they have tested and understand how the equipment works and what advantage it can or can't bring to the table.
F-Class is one of the most demanding rifle sports there are. It demands attention to detail unprecedented for the entire process from load development, load manufacture, load tuning, bullet choice, rifle construction, barrel choice, scope choice, and shooting skills. If you fail in any then you are not competitive and will not place well. A simple primer change can and has expanded a group size and that can take you from winner to loser. Handloading skills are actually more important than shooting skills. Load development and testing is the same.
The cost of my rifles equal or exceed the PRS game rifles and my reloading equipment cost far exceeds the cost of my rifles!!! Going to a match with factory match ammo is a waste of time, effort, and money.
Your complete package of rifle, scope and load must shoot to 1/4 moa right out to 1000 yards to win and must maintain that level of accuracy through 25 round strings. Rifle barrels come off the line too hot to hold in the summer and you will get burns on your hands!!
One thing we also have found is that the highest priced gear does not always function correctly and is not the best. In some cases, the lowest priced stuff works far better so you must have an open mind in order to continually test to verify what is working. You can't be a fanboy of certain products or services because they all change over time and unless you are continually changing you will lose. This is why top F-Class shooters sometimes recommend equipment that don't seem to fit the norm. However, you can bet that they have tested and understand how the equipment works and what advantage it can or can't bring to the table.
One thing I learned a few years ago was that no amount of equipment can compete with great marksmanship.
Most F-class guys who haven't tried it would do themselves a huge favor to spend some time shooting TR or Match rifle.
I can see why TR shooters stick to it until the end now.
Most F-class guys who haven't tried it would do themselves a huge favor to spend some time shooting TR or Match rifle.
I can see why TR shooters stick to it until the end now.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I would encourage any PRS/PRL shooter that wants to up their LR game to go shoot some F class matches. Some ranges will set up an area for muzzle braked shooters so you don't even need to change your rifle.
At the Rattlesnake range in S. WA, quite a few PRS/NRL shooters come out and practise/compete out to 1000yds (distances possible include 300, 600, 800, 900 and 1000yds). No better way to confirm dope, wind drift, load tuning, optics and rests. Each relay/distance will allow at least 17rds on paper and every shot is marked so you know exactly where you went.
Ranges have flags so there a way to compare wind and the actual affect on the bullet.
The PRS/NRL shooters are a great bunch of guys/gals and always leave with a much broader understanding of what is possible for LR accuracy, consistency. The many popular flavours of chamberings and bullets get tried.. even some 7mm and 30cal ELR boomers come out and play.
There is a real world comparison vs F Class set ups and options. pretty hard to debate scores and plot sheets.
To really improve in LR shooting, wind reading is paramount but you also need to have a set up with a very narrow cone of accuracy. For many, that is hard to test and rocks/gongs will not tell you all that you need to know. F class allows every shot to be marked and you have the time to make notes on the shot vs conditions... this is plotting your shots. Over time, you will see trends that might explain and address issues with current tuning and rifle set ups.... and you have the number of shots to allow for testing during the relay and compare the effects.
Ever wonder what 0.1gr of powder can do to your load tuning at 1000yds? with as many as 30rds in a 1000yds relay, you can do alot of testing.
Both F class and PRS use very capable gear but the approach to accuracy and LR tuning is quite different. Shooting on paper and getting real time feedback can prove to be very enlightening..... and humbling.
But then you know... and thus can improve.
Jerry
Matches are held every month at the Rattlesnake range near Benton/Richland, WA... for those interested, please pm or email and I can direct to the right contact at the range.
At the Rattlesnake range in S. WA, quite a few PRS/NRL shooters come out and practise/compete out to 1000yds (distances possible include 300, 600, 800, 900 and 1000yds). No better way to confirm dope, wind drift, load tuning, optics and rests. Each relay/distance will allow at least 17rds on paper and every shot is marked so you know exactly where you went.
Ranges have flags so there a way to compare wind and the actual affect on the bullet.
The PRS/NRL shooters are a great bunch of guys/gals and always leave with a much broader understanding of what is possible for LR accuracy, consistency. The many popular flavours of chamberings and bullets get tried.. even some 7mm and 30cal ELR boomers come out and play.
There is a real world comparison vs F Class set ups and options. pretty hard to debate scores and plot sheets.
To really improve in LR shooting, wind reading is paramount but you also need to have a set up with a very narrow cone of accuracy. For many, that is hard to test and rocks/gongs will not tell you all that you need to know. F class allows every shot to be marked and you have the time to make notes on the shot vs conditions... this is plotting your shots. Over time, you will see trends that might explain and address issues with current tuning and rifle set ups.... and you have the number of shots to allow for testing during the relay and compare the effects.
Ever wonder what 0.1gr of powder can do to your load tuning at 1000yds? with as many as 30rds in a 1000yds relay, you can do alot of testing.
Both F class and PRS use very capable gear but the approach to accuracy and LR tuning is quite different. Shooting on paper and getting real time feedback can prove to be very enlightening..... and humbling.
But then you know... and thus can improve.
Jerry
Matches are held every month at the Rattlesnake range near Benton/Richland, WA... for those interested, please pm or email and I can direct to the right contact at the range.
Appreciate the conversation and the detailed responses, all good to know.
Apparently there are some 1,000 yard bench rest comps in my neck of the woods in Arizona in which I have been thinking about hitting up. Extra practice is always a good thing.
Apparently there are some 1,000 yard bench rest comps in my neck of the woods in Arizona in which I have been thinking about hitting up. Extra practice is always a good thing.
If you live anywhere near Phoenix there are f-class matches fairly often all winter at Phoenix Rod and Gun and Ben Avery. Check out the Desert Sharpshooters website for details. The Highpower (Sling and F Clas shooters ) at both clubs are friendly, easy going guys to shoot with.
I Got a Defiance Rebel action - A Benchmark 7mm SS 8.5 twist 5R Barrel to finish at 32" and 1 " diam Chambered in 284 Win and a Trigger Tech Diamond Trigger . Its ALL going to be bedded into MacMillian F Class stock . Scope is a Night Force 15-55 x 52 Competition . Rings are ??? YET BRNO284 from Kamloops is doing the Work for me ! 
RJ
RJJust as there is no one golf club that is best for every shot in golf, there is no one perfect caliber that is best for every distance and every wind condition.
As Steve mentioned earlier a 6 mm can win on a calm day but larger calibers do better in the wind... So this feeds my point...
I've seen guys bring two rifles and switch between them throughout the weekend running a 6BR at 300 yards and a 300 Boo Boo at the back.
You can show up with a .284 on a calm day and get beat by the sixes, or show up with a six on a windy day and get beat by the 6.5s.
So then what... build a windy rifle and a calm rifle? Lots of F Class shooters have several rifles and decide what to shoot based on the distance and weather forecast.
Or just be prepared to pick your battles and take your lumps if the conditions don't feed into your strengths.
Its all about balance.
As for the tried and true competitive F Class loads, they all have one thing in common... The powder charge is about 1/3 of the bullet weight. That's the sweet spot between efficient ballistic performance and barrel life.
The main thing with F Class that throws off new shooters is the absolute need to maintain positional consistency for the entire shot string. Not your body... the rifle. One good shot does not count... 10 or 15 in a row counts, and when recoil causes the rifle to rotate and you start throwing rounds left and right because of inconsistent cant, you will be chasing wind ghosts all weekend and not know why.
And then there's the mysterious verticals... You gotta pay attention to cloud cover changes that cause verticals and be prepared to grab your nuts and make the call before you break the shot and come to regret either your ignorance or cowardice. I've watched the targets come up after a cloud rolls in and it's like synchronized swimming on the target boards with shots popping up into the 5 ring and that is where you can spot the experienced shooters who anticipated it. The cycle repeats itself when the cloud leaves but in reverse.
As Steve mentioned earlier a 6 mm can win on a calm day but larger calibers do better in the wind... So this feeds my point...
I've seen guys bring two rifles and switch between them throughout the weekend running a 6BR at 300 yards and a 300 Boo Boo at the back.
You can show up with a .284 on a calm day and get beat by the sixes, or show up with a six on a windy day and get beat by the 6.5s.
So then what... build a windy rifle and a calm rifle? Lots of F Class shooters have several rifles and decide what to shoot based on the distance and weather forecast.
Or just be prepared to pick your battles and take your lumps if the conditions don't feed into your strengths.
Its all about balance.
As for the tried and true competitive F Class loads, they all have one thing in common... The powder charge is about 1/3 of the bullet weight. That's the sweet spot between efficient ballistic performance and barrel life.
The main thing with F Class that throws off new shooters is the absolute need to maintain positional consistency for the entire shot string. Not your body... the rifle. One good shot does not count... 10 or 15 in a row counts, and when recoil causes the rifle to rotate and you start throwing rounds left and right because of inconsistent cant, you will be chasing wind ghosts all weekend and not know why.
And then there's the mysterious verticals... You gotta pay attention to cloud cover changes that cause verticals and be prepared to grab your nuts and make the call before you break the shot and come to regret either your ignorance or cowardice. I've watched the targets come up after a cloud rolls in and it's like synchronized swimming on the target boards with shots popping up into the 5 ring and that is where you can spot the experienced shooters who anticipated it. The cycle repeats itself when the cloud leaves but in reverse.
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