I was considering getting into F class shooting specifically the F/tr class and was wondering since only .223 and 308 are aloud in competition do the two different calibers compete against each other or do all the .223 guys compete against each other and then the .308 guys separately? If they do compete against each other which would be the better caliber to start with? I was thinking .308 because the heavier bullets but what do you guys think?
F Class Question
- Thread starter pklassen
- Start date
wapitiwhacker
CGN Regular
- Location
- East Kootenay B.C.
I only started shooting F Class this year so I am not professing any huge amount of experience. But, being one small step ahead of where you are at now, hopefully some of my research and reasoning may help your quest.
First off, F/TR is a great place to start, .223 and .308 compete side by side and against each other.
I started with a .223. The main reasons being it is easy on the wallet and easy on the shoulder.
Not having a huge amount of experience shooting past 200 yds. I want to practice, practice, practice. The .223 allows me to do this quite nicely, as it is roughly half the cost of .308 for reloading components. Also, with reduced recoil vs. the .308 I can shoot the .223 for as long as my concentration will allow, and not worry about getting a sore shoulder or developing bad habits due to recoil.
The drawbacks to the .223 would be that it is very sensitive to variations in the powder charge. If you don't reload, I understand match ammo is more difficult to find for the .223 than the .308. At longer ranges the .223 will be more susceptible to wind drift than the .308.
If you do reload and pick the .223, get a scale with high sensitivity and pay attention to your charge weights. After talking with a couple of very knowledgeable people who reload the .223 I try my utmost to load to a variance of less than .1 gr.
The .223 and .308 are very similar ballistically, but obviously if Mr Newton is correct, the wind will play more havoc with an 80 gr. .223 than a 155 gr .308 travelling at similar speeds. At the distances I shoot ( mostly 300 yds., but out to 600 meters when I can) this is pretty much a moot point. From my understanding 900 yds or more is when the smaller, lighter .223 is at its greatest disadvantage in the wind.
If you do decide to go with a .223 you will best be served by finding a rifle barrelled with 1in8 or faster twist. This will allow you to shoot the 80 gr. bullets that do best in the wind.
Soooo,,, the .308 while possibly outperforming the .223 at longer range on windy days was won over for me by the fact that I can practice more and longer with my .223. I don't feel the caliber has handicapped me in any way. There are some very successful .223 shooters where I shoot and they consistently take home hardware at the end of the shoots they participate in.
What ever you choose I wish you luck, get out, burn some powder and have some fun.
First off, F/TR is a great place to start, .223 and .308 compete side by side and against each other.
I started with a .223. The main reasons being it is easy on the wallet and easy on the shoulder.
Not having a huge amount of experience shooting past 200 yds. I want to practice, practice, practice. The .223 allows me to do this quite nicely, as it is roughly half the cost of .308 for reloading components. Also, with reduced recoil vs. the .308 I can shoot the .223 for as long as my concentration will allow, and not worry about getting a sore shoulder or developing bad habits due to recoil.
The drawbacks to the .223 would be that it is very sensitive to variations in the powder charge. If you don't reload, I understand match ammo is more difficult to find for the .223 than the .308. At longer ranges the .223 will be more susceptible to wind drift than the .308.
If you do reload and pick the .223, get a scale with high sensitivity and pay attention to your charge weights. After talking with a couple of very knowledgeable people who reload the .223 I try my utmost to load to a variance of less than .1 gr.
The .223 and .308 are very similar ballistically, but obviously if Mr Newton is correct, the wind will play more havoc with an 80 gr. .223 than a 155 gr .308 travelling at similar speeds. At the distances I shoot ( mostly 300 yds., but out to 600 meters when I can) this is pretty much a moot point. From my understanding 900 yds or more is when the smaller, lighter .223 is at its greatest disadvantage in the wind.
If you do decide to go with a .223 you will best be served by finding a rifle barrelled with 1in8 or faster twist. This will allow you to shoot the 80 gr. bullets that do best in the wind.
Soooo,,, the .308 while possibly outperforming the .223 at longer range on windy days was won over for me by the fact that I can practice more and longer with my .223. I don't feel the caliber has handicapped me in any way. There are some very successful .223 shooters where I shoot and they consistently take home hardware at the end of the shoots they participate in.
What ever you choose I wish you luck, get out, burn some powder and have some fun.
Ftr
I also started shooting in FTR this year , rite allongside wapitwhacker , i shoot a .308 , and its a fun and very addicting sport , you can shoot well with either of these calibers , my rifle is a customized Rem 5r i bought it in .308 cause i originally was going to use it for deer hunting but its now a strictly F -Class rifle , i don't think you can go wrong with either calibe you can win matches with each of these calibers with the rite pilot behind the rifle .
I also started shooting in FTR this year , rite allongside wapitwhacker , i shoot a .308 , and its a fun and very addicting sport , you can shoot well with either of these calibers , my rifle is a customized Rem 5r i bought it in .308 cause i originally was going to use it for deer hunting but its now a strictly F -Class rifle , i don't think you can go wrong with either calibe you can win matches with each of these calibers with the rite pilot behind the rifle .
The ORA website says that for F(F) aka F(TR)
So unfortunately it seems 90 gr 223 wouldn't be allowed.
90 are in. pulled from the DCRA blog
For 2010 it has been decided to "merge" F-TR and F-Farquharson, using the more lenient of the two rules, to be offered as "F/F" (i.e. .223 or .308, any bullet weight, and any means of front support as per F/Open)
For 2010 it has been decided to "merge" F-TR and F-Farquharson, using the more lenient of the two rules, to be offered as "F/F" (i.e. .223 or .308, any bullet weight, and any means of front support as per F/Open)
What is the maximum distance that you shoot in F/TR? I am considering shooting some matches. I have shot in Tactical/Sniper competitions but never in F Class. It definitely seems like it would be fun and no doubt you will learn a ton, especially with all the quality shooters out there.
That's neat news. The 90 gr 223 bullets have attractively high BCs.
What is everyone's thoughts on bipod vs tripod for front support? Is it easier to shoot with a tripod? I know it'd definitely be easier to make small elevation changes with a tripod.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
When my barrel shows up this fall, I will build myself an F TR rifle.
Will be a 223 w/ a 7 twist Shilen, 28" long
Past barrels have shown the 223 will push the 90gr Berger VLD slightly over 2800fps but have not had the type of barrel to really see what the accuracy can be like. Speed in the 2700's with superb accuracy is a no brainer these days.
Given that the 'world' is moving towards a bipod rule, I would suggest you look at this route. Something like a Remple Skipod is every bit as good as most front pedestal rest.
Cause I have the winter, I will build something for myself.
Jerry
Will be a 223 w/ a 7 twist Shilen, 28" long
Past barrels have shown the 223 will push the 90gr Berger VLD slightly over 2800fps but have not had the type of barrel to really see what the accuracy can be like. Speed in the 2700's with superb accuracy is a no brainer these days.
Given that the 'world' is moving towards a bipod rule, I would suggest you look at this route. Something like a Remple Skipod is every bit as good as most front pedestal rest.
Cause I have the winter, I will build something for myself.
Jerry
Once I switched to the 90 VLD's I would never go back to the 80's and never even think about a .308....JMO. Since the 90's I have now are working great, if/when I build an F-open rifle, it will most likely be a .22 wildcat of some sort.
Even if you factor in only getting 2700fps out of a 223/90VLD combo, it still has 10" less of drift at 1000yd than a 80VLD screaming at 3000.....
Even if you factor in only getting 2700fps out of a 223/90VLD combo, it still has 10" less of drift at 1000yd than a 80VLD screaming at 3000.....
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Budweiser360, SteveB is shooting a superbly accurate 22BR and I have just finished testing a 22/250 which showed great promise.
the Berger 90gr VLD has no issue going over 3200fps in a 7 twist barrel. I was hoping to blow them up but no luck.
Even compared to the 7mm's, a fast 90gr Berger has very impressive ballistics.
Barrel life will suck but so will a magnum 7mm and who will be able to see straighter at the end of the match????
Jerry
the Berger 90gr VLD has no issue going over 3200fps in a 7 twist barrel. I was hoping to blow them up but no luck.
Even compared to the 7mm's, a fast 90gr Berger has very impressive ballistics.
Barrel life will suck but so will a magnum 7mm and who will be able to see straighter at the end of the match????
Jerry
I see we greatly agree on this theory
I have asked Bryan about the 90's and he said 3400 should not be a problem with a 7.5 or 7.7 twist. The more I think about it, a 22 Dasher or 22x47 sounds more and more appealing for an F-open gun.Cheers,
Spencer
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
WOW, that is a whole lot faster then I was thinking.
I found the 22/250 case capacity to be ideal for that speed. 100% load density load of h4831SC at just over 3200fps. Some groups at 500m that were in the 1.5" range. Absolutely no problem holding the V bull.
however, the taper in the case makes sizing often a royal PITA. I feel something like a 22-6.5X47L would be a superb choice. I like shoulders at 40deg but 30deg or more works great too. Get rid of most of the case taper and case life will be very good.
Somewhere around 40ish gr of H4831SC should get these spears rocking.
Of course, recoil was very low.
I think the BR family of cases work great but will have a hard time going over 3000fps without excessive pressures.
Another option would be the improved 22/250 which could make 3300fps happen with moderate pressures.
Now that would be very interesting indeed.
Jerry
I found the 22/250 case capacity to be ideal for that speed. 100% load density load of h4831SC at just over 3200fps. Some groups at 500m that were in the 1.5" range. Absolutely no problem holding the V bull.
however, the taper in the case makes sizing often a royal PITA. I feel something like a 22-6.5X47L would be a superb choice. I like shoulders at 40deg but 30deg or more works great too. Get rid of most of the case taper and case life will be very good.
Somewhere around 40ish gr of H4831SC should get these spears rocking.
Of course, recoil was very low.
I think the BR family of cases work great but will have a hard time going over 3000fps without excessive pressures.
Another option would be the improved 22/250 which could make 3300fps happen with moderate pressures.
Now that would be very interesting indeed.
Jerry
PK I think like a few others have said the 223 rem would make a nice combination shooting 90gr Berger VLD easy to shoot, not expensive to load for compared to others.
I was able to win a shoot this weekend in the 308 & 223 class but only by one point.
It was only 85 shots at 300,500 & 600y with TR targets, may never shoot as well as I did again. but even if I don't win you meet some great people and have fun shooting.
And the 223 rem was only a few V's behind the open class, but at 1000 the open boys would be murder on the 308 & 223 with tricky strong winds.
As far as building these 22-250 & 243 22cal etc with 7 twist and driving the 90gr at 3000+ fps I don't
think there going to beat the hi BC's of the 7mm 180 & 205gr 30cal,at almost 700 BC only. just build a 223 its the way I see Fclass going to.
manitou
I was able to win a shoot this weekend in the 308 & 223 class but only by one point.
It was only 85 shots at 300,500 & 600y with TR targets, may never shoot as well as I did again. but even if I don't win you meet some great people and have fun shooting.
And the 223 rem was only a few V's behind the open class, but at 1000 the open boys would be murder on the 308 & 223 with tricky strong winds.
As far as building these 22-250 & 243 22cal etc with 7 twist and driving the 90gr at 3000+ fps I don't
think there going to beat the hi BC's of the 7mm 180 & 205gr 30cal,at almost 700 BC only. just build a 223 its the way I see Fclass going to.
manitou
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
Congratulations manitou210 for the past weekend. Very nice shooting indeed! Think about Connaught on the 22 of August. Don't worry about the open boys at 1k. They can have bad days too.
