f class rules.....
- Thread starter Duck_Hunter
- Start date
A Remington 40X is not a factory rifle in the spirit of the rules (off the shelf rifle) for the F(M) class. It is a Remington Custom Shop rifle. Yes you can try to argue that point but a 40X doesn't roll off the assembly line like a 700 does.
If the rifle is in .308 or .223 you can play in the F(F) class. Any other caliber, and it is off to F(O) open class for you.
If the rifle is in .308 or .223 you can play in the F(F) class. Any other caliber, and it is off to F(O) open class for you.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
maynard, any ruling on the new single shot Savage rifles?
They are massed produced/available off the shelf but come with some very fancy features.
Jerry
They are massed produced/available off the shelf but come with some very fancy features.
Jerry
If it's off the shelf, mass produced gun it is good to go for F(M) class. If the new 6.5-.284 Savage hits the market, they will be hard to beat. Just because it is a massed produced rifle doesn't mean you can't shoot it in the Open class.
I must say the F(M) class is designed to get entry level shooters into the game. If the top F Class shooters are looking to win a prize by shooting a factory gun, the sport will never grow.
See the link manitou210 posted for the rules.
I must say the F(M) class is designed to get entry level shooters into the game. If the top F Class shooters are looking to win a prize by shooting a factory gun, the sport will never grow.
See the link manitou210 posted for the rules.
F class shooting
I sure hope it grows as there is so many good varmit guns out there that are quite capable of shooting sub inch groups, in many diff calibers.a lot of people could come to shoots and do very well at 300 & 500 yards.
I had lunch with a very good long range shooter Alain Marion and he said it best, when there is conditions ie; wind it does not make a lot of differance if guys gun shoots larger groups at 100yards than the 6.5/284/ or others, he could still beat the fellow with the 1/4" gun if he can see and read the wind etc better at long distances.He said he saw a fellow at 1000yards with black powder beat a .308win Full bore gun.
Guys load up some shells and give it a try it could be lots of fun,
I sure hope it grows as there is so many good varmit guns out there that are quite capable of shooting sub inch groups, in many diff calibers.a lot of people could come to shoots and do very well at 300 & 500 yards.
I had lunch with a very good long range shooter Alain Marion and he said it best, when there is conditions ie; wind it does not make a lot of differance if guys gun shoots larger groups at 100yards than the 6.5/284/ or others, he could still beat the fellow with the 1/4" gun if he can see and read the wind etc better at long distances.He said he saw a fellow at 1000yards with black powder beat a .308win Full bore gun.
Guys load up some shells and give it a try it could be lots of fun,
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
maynard, why I asked the question. I love what Savage is doing. However, I would not allow it in F(M)! I wouldn't allow the 40X either.
Both the 308 and 6.5-284 rifles should go in their respective classes. Leave the F(M) to the 'varminting' sized/styled rifles. Maybe capping barrel length at 26" will help.
Mass produced single shot small port 6oz triggered 30" heavy barreled bench rest stocked rifles just doesn't seem like the spirit of a 'factory' class. Although it would likely clean up.
Maybe there will be a Savage factory class for these rifles. Now that would be neat. Corporate sponsorship. Low equipment costs. Prizes......
I wouldn't allow the LE versions into F(M) either although likely not be shot there given the limitations of the 308. Better in F(F/TR).
F(M) is about to get a whole bunch more complicated.
Jerry
Both the 308 and 6.5-284 rifles should go in their respective classes. Leave the F(M) to the 'varminting' sized/styled rifles. Maybe capping barrel length at 26" will help.
Mass produced single shot small port 6oz triggered 30" heavy barreled bench rest stocked rifles just doesn't seem like the spirit of a 'factory' class. Although it would likely clean up.
Maybe there will be a Savage factory class for these rifles. Now that would be neat. Corporate sponsorship. Low equipment costs. Prizes......
I wouldn't allow the LE versions into F(M) either although likely not be shot there given the limitations of the 308. Better in F(F/TR).
F(M) is about to get a whole bunch more complicated.
Jerry
manitou210 said:
Alain could shoot a stick and beat most shooters on this planet
He has proved that many times over. I know all about the the BP rifle beating all the fullbore shooters at 900m, once
. I think it was just as much, good luck as it was good shooting. Not to take anything away from Chris Jones either, it was a good shoot. Jerry, we have done some testing in the last couple years with experienced long range shooters and factory rifles. The test have shown that an off the shelf .308 is almost competitive with a custom built .308 shooting the same bullet. Same goes for a factory .223 against a custom built .223. In most cases all the custom rifles beat all the factory class rifles. Once in a while a factory gun would sneak in for a 2nd or 3rd place finish.
With the F(M) class, there is hope that these new entry level shooters move up to F(F) or F(O) as their barrels are shot out. Or just move up because they are more comfortable shooting matches.
They will already have the platform for their custom rifle.
Most F(O) shooters that shoot 6.5-.284 will rebarrel before the 1500 round mark. The barrals may still be good but maybe not good enough to win F(O).For someone coming into the game shooting F(M) with a 6.5-.284 Savage rebarreling at 1500 rounds is not something he is going to want to do too often.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
maynard, big reason why we spend all that money on better barrels. Consistency is much better then with a factory pipe although Savage is narrowing the gap. It is that consistency that stops us from dropping points and scoring more X's.
The issue isn't if a Savage factory rifle will dominate F(O). It will not but it will be competitive and for the cost, a great way to enter F(O) NOT F(M).
however, for a factory class, it will discourage many new shooters when they see such a rig on the line. If driven by a decent shot and win, the new shooters will simply not return as they feel their gear 'inadequate'.
Plus the 8 twist 6.5-284 Savage is head and shoulders over ANY other factory set up. Even if the other rigs were equally accurate, the ballistics advantage of the Savage at LR would drive anyone wanting to do well to this rifle.
Then you add a great stock, super light trigger which really help to let a shooter do their best work.
Do you really think a custom 1/4 MOA 308 would have much of a chance over a 3/4MOA 6.5-284 when the wind blows? You better know how to dope wind against someone who is partially blind.
It would be the same thing as having a 'factory' car race where most show up with a sporty coupe and a few guys show up in Ferraris. What's the point?
I think the easiest way to control this is to put in a max barrel length of 26". I am unaware of any factory rifle, except these Savages, that come with a pipe longer then 26". Problem solved.
Jerry
The issue isn't if a Savage factory rifle will dominate F(O). It will not but it will be competitive and for the cost, a great way to enter F(O) NOT F(M).
however, for a factory class, it will discourage many new shooters when they see such a rig on the line. If driven by a decent shot and win, the new shooters will simply not return as they feel their gear 'inadequate'.
Plus the 8 twist 6.5-284 Savage is head and shoulders over ANY other factory set up. Even if the other rigs were equally accurate, the ballistics advantage of the Savage at LR would drive anyone wanting to do well to this rifle.
Then you add a great stock, super light trigger which really help to let a shooter do their best work.
Do you really think a custom 1/4 MOA 308 would have much of a chance over a 3/4MOA 6.5-284 when the wind blows? You better know how to dope wind against someone who is partially blind.
It would be the same thing as having a 'factory' car race where most show up with a sporty coupe and a few guys show up in Ferraris. What's the point?
I think the easiest way to control this is to put in a max barrel length of 26". I am unaware of any factory rifle, except these Savages, that come with a pipe longer then 26". Problem solved.
Jerry
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
manitou210 said:
"The same shooters using lesser gear will still be winning the matches, all other things being equal - wind is everything."
I first made this statement after watching my father in a BP shoot about 20 years ago.
he had never shot a BP rifle before, held kentucky windage with patched round ball, and shot better offhand at 100 than a lot of experienced shooters did at 50.
If you can shoot, you can shoot, period, and you can only buy a certain amount of accuracy!
Cat
Kodiak99317
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Saskatchewan, Canada
Jerry and Maynard,
A good buddy and I talked this over alot today after an outting at the range and we basically concluded and both believe that for a rifle to fit into F(M), it should be a rifle that
* you do not have to special order from the factory
* has a factory mass produced action, barrel, stock and trigger
* is not made in the factory's custom shop
* this class IMO should NOT have a bullet weight limit or caliber requirements and is for the true beginners, using the old Parker-Hale 243 or 6.5x55 or Enfield 303 or whatevers, so the sport grows and we get more new shooters out...
I think once you change anything (barrel/trigger/stock/Action/rechamber) IMO, as Maynard said, you are in F(F), but you have to use a 308 or 223 and meet rifle weight and bullet weight requirements or 155g or 80g so the BC's are equal and it's shooter against shooter.
That said, there are a lot of presummed "factory mass produced hunting rifles", like the new Savage FClass rifle, 40X, Tikka (Sako's cottage industry custom shop) T3 or the older LSA-55 Heavy Barrel, Savage or Rem or whatever with a special non-factory barrel (i.e., Hart, Shilen or Lilja etc) or non-factory trigger (Jewell etc).... even if you did buy it off the shelf at your local gun shop(since they ordered it in speculation), would all fall into F(O), kind of like a Borden "Walk-Around" Varmint Rifle or a Borden Standard Hunting rifle, which too looks like "normal, off the shelf hunting rilfe", would be in F(O). Also, IMO, if you do not make the bullet weight restrictions for the 308/223 of 155g/80g, again, your in F(O). This is the way I see it anyways
A good buddy and I talked this over alot today after an outting at the range and we basically concluded and both believe that for a rifle to fit into F(M), it should be a rifle that
* you do not have to special order from the factory
* has a factory mass produced action, barrel, stock and trigger
* is not made in the factory's custom shop
* this class IMO should NOT have a bullet weight limit or caliber requirements and is for the true beginners, using the old Parker-Hale 243 or 6.5x55 or Enfield 303 or whatevers, so the sport grows and we get more new shooters out...
I think once you change anything (barrel/trigger/stock/Action/rechamber) IMO, as Maynard said, you are in F(F), but you have to use a 308 or 223 and meet rifle weight and bullet weight requirements or 155g or 80g so the BC's are equal and it's shooter against shooter.
That said, there are a lot of presummed "factory mass produced hunting rifles", like the new Savage FClass rifle, 40X, Tikka (Sako's cottage industry custom shop) T3 or the older LSA-55 Heavy Barrel, Savage or Rem or whatever with a special non-factory barrel (i.e., Hart, Shilen or Lilja etc) or non-factory trigger (Jewell etc).... even if you did buy it off the shelf at your local gun shop(since they ordered it in speculation), would all fall into F(O), kind of like a Borden "Walk-Around" Varmint Rifle or a Borden Standard Hunting rifle, which too looks like "normal, off the shelf hunting rilfe", would be in F(O). Also, IMO, if you do not make the bullet weight restrictions for the 308/223 of 155g/80g, again, your in F(O). This is the way I see it anyways
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
This particular rifle has a 1 in 12 twist in 223. It can only stablize lighter bullets, and would not be very good at LR on normal breezy days.
More Rules stuff
Good Morning Gents, before we try and reinvent the wheel, the discussion with regard to what is and what is not a factory rifle has been beat to death over the past few years. Several Provincial Associations have tried different formula to create a place for everything. The problem is still in the numbers. With F class being split into Open and Farky, at all the Provincial matches I get to, the number of shooters in each class does not warrant awards for each. As it stands, any rifle you own fits into one of the two simply by caliber / ammunition alone.
As a member of the DCRA F Class Rules Sub Commitee, a constant theme for dicussion was an effort to increase the number of competitors. It became obvious, after all the discussion and the Provincial experiments with rifle type class additions, the number of new shooters was not growing. To this end, it was decided to leave the class issue as it stands. Therefore, the Rules for Internanional F Class competitions are adopted from ICFRA, with Natitonal Fullbore (F Class) seeing the DCRA's annual CFRC and Provincial matches ostensibly remaining per the standing DCRA Fullbore Rules. It should be noted several Provincial Rifle Associations (PRA's) have tried adding classes for Magazine Rifles, Factory Rifles, Tactical Rifles, etc with little, if any, increase in the numbers.
I'd like to use Canada's premiere F Class Event, the Annual Canadian Fulbore Rifle Championships at Connaught as an example. With the number of F Class shooters I know personally, there should have been 200+ shooters in attendance. There were 65 if memory serves and a great percentage were International competitors.
This illustrates the fact that most F Class Canadian shooters compete entirely within their home Province. As the PRA's can run Matches with any Rules, Classes or Awards system they chose, I'm sure the debate regarding Rifle Designation isn't over.
Now to add another dimension. The US NRA has adopted a shooter classification system similar to Fullbore T/R. The approach has merit, in my mind, as competitors are shooting against others with like performance levels. Not against equipment.
I have initiated aproposal to the DCRA, specifically Dr. Jim Thompson F Class Director, that we look at shooter classification as an option. If this avenue produces an increase in participation remains to be seen. What it does do is put shooters ability and performance back as the main classification criteria regardless of what equipment is in use. As it was put previously in this thread, if you can shoot you'll do well, the rest is academic.
I thank you for your time.
Cheers, Glen
Good Morning Gents, before we try and reinvent the wheel, the discussion with regard to what is and what is not a factory rifle has been beat to death over the past few years. Several Provincial Associations have tried different formula to create a place for everything. The problem is still in the numbers. With F class being split into Open and Farky, at all the Provincial matches I get to, the number of shooters in each class does not warrant awards for each. As it stands, any rifle you own fits into one of the two simply by caliber / ammunition alone.
As a member of the DCRA F Class Rules Sub Commitee, a constant theme for dicussion was an effort to increase the number of competitors. It became obvious, after all the discussion and the Provincial experiments with rifle type class additions, the number of new shooters was not growing. To this end, it was decided to leave the class issue as it stands. Therefore, the Rules for Internanional F Class competitions are adopted from ICFRA, with Natitonal Fullbore (F Class) seeing the DCRA's annual CFRC and Provincial matches ostensibly remaining per the standing DCRA Fullbore Rules. It should be noted several Provincial Rifle Associations (PRA's) have tried adding classes for Magazine Rifles, Factory Rifles, Tactical Rifles, etc with little, if any, increase in the numbers.
I'd like to use Canada's premiere F Class Event, the Annual Canadian Fulbore Rifle Championships at Connaught as an example. With the number of F Class shooters I know personally, there should have been 200+ shooters in attendance. There were 65 if memory serves and a great percentage were International competitors.
This illustrates the fact that most F Class Canadian shooters compete entirely within their home Province. As the PRA's can run Matches with any Rules, Classes or Awards system they chose, I'm sure the debate regarding Rifle Designation isn't over.
Now to add another dimension. The US NRA has adopted a shooter classification system similar to Fullbore T/R. The approach has merit, in my mind, as competitors are shooting against others with like performance levels. Not against equipment.
I have initiated aproposal to the DCRA, specifically Dr. Jim Thompson F Class Director, that we look at shooter classification as an option. If this avenue produces an increase in participation remains to be seen. What it does do is put shooters ability and performance back as the main classification criteria regardless of what equipment is in use. As it was put previously in this thread, if you can shoot you'll do well, the rest is academic.
I thank you for your time.
Cheers, Glen
Glen,
Remember the ill fated TR-O class that the DCRA had a few years back? This was TR with a scope, shot off the elbows with a jacket and sling. It died a slow painful death after about 3 years, going from a half dozen shooters at most, to zero in three years. Maybe the timing wasn't right?
With the exception of F Class (Canadian concept) and hand loaded ammo, Canada follows suit with the NRA UK.
If 3 or more people wanted to shoot Remingtom 7400's at the DCRA matches, they would make an class for them. Factory class in Ontario is just starting to grow. All PRA's should support it and let it run it's course. If your PRA gets 2 new shooters a year, it's worth it.
Back 15 years ago, F Class was new and was only offered in F(F). Then the Americans caught on and started coming to Canada in larger numbers, lead by Bill Wylde, who was a TR shooter turned F Class. Once other calibers were introduced the old .308 and .223 weren't cutting it, hence the creation of F(O).
F(M) was brought in to get the guys that have a rifle sitting at home with no place to shoot it, a starting point for competition shooting. It will also get a newby in for around $1000 or less for a rifle and scope. Getting a new person to dish out $3000- $5000 right off the start will do nothing to promote the sport.
I can see putting in classifications for F(F) and F(O), but the F(M) is already a starting point much like the Greenshot class in TR.
I think entry fees and travel costs are the biggest factor in shooters not coming the the DCRA matches. Why not have a western Canada F class Championship? Maybe the DCRA will even support it.
Remember the ill fated TR-O class that the DCRA had a few years back? This was TR with a scope, shot off the elbows with a jacket and sling. It died a slow painful death after about 3 years, going from a half dozen shooters at most, to zero in three years. Maybe the timing wasn't right?
With the exception of F Class (Canadian concept) and hand loaded ammo, Canada follows suit with the NRA UK.
If 3 or more people wanted to shoot Remingtom 7400's at the DCRA matches, they would make an class for them. Factory class in Ontario is just starting to grow. All PRA's should support it and let it run it's course. If your PRA gets 2 new shooters a year, it's worth it.
Back 15 years ago, F Class was new and was only offered in F(F). Then the Americans caught on and started coming to Canada in larger numbers, lead by Bill Wylde, who was a TR shooter turned F Class. Once other calibers were introduced the old .308 and .223 weren't cutting it, hence the creation of F(O).
F(M) was brought in to get the guys that have a rifle sitting at home with no place to shoot it, a starting point for competition shooting. It will also get a newby in for around $1000 or less for a rifle and scope. Getting a new person to dish out $3000- $5000 right off the start will do nothing to promote the sport.
I can see putting in classifications for F(F) and F(O), but the F(M) is already a starting point much like the Greenshot class in TR.
I think entry fees and travel costs are the biggest factor in shooters not coming the the DCRA matches. Why not have a western Canada F class Championship? Maybe the DCRA will even support it.
Holy crap, I guess so!
I was just checking out the entry fees for the CFRC DCRA matches.
Wow, I make a fine salary but dropping over a thousand dollars just in fees to shoot for a week is frankly ridiculous.
How do you ever expect to attract new shooters to that?
I was just checking out the entry fees for the CFRC DCRA matches.
Wow, I make a fine salary but dropping over a thousand dollars just in fees to shoot for a week is frankly ridiculous.
How do you ever expect to attract new shooters to that?
Are you adding your membership fees to this? I shoot the warm up matches and the Grand Agg. $755 for 9 days of shooting.
If you add in accommodations and meals, yes, you are over $1000, but you have to eat anyway.
There are also the "Short Courses" if you can't get the time off or don't want the whole meal deal.
One thing that is included is the marker fees. The DCRA hires a group of school girls from Smith Falls. You never have to go to the butts or even touch a target.
If you add in accommodations and meals, yes, you are over $1000, but you have to eat anyway.
There are also the "Short Courses" if you can't get the time off or don't want the whole meal deal.
One thing that is included is the marker fees. The DCRA hires a group of school girls from Smith Falls. You never have to go to the butts or even touch a target.
