F Class with short barrel?
- Thread starter Robbs
- Start date
I'm sure if you were to attend a match as an observer you'd find lots of folks willing to help get you started. I know that's how I got interested, and subsequently shot my 1st year with a factory R700 SPS-V.
FWIW nobody is trying to dissuade new shooters from coming to try it out, but it would be irresponsible of us F-ers to tell somebody with equipment that is not up to the task that they will be fine with what they have. There are quite simply minimum requirements in order to play this game; some rifles meet them and others may not. It's not about excluding people, it's about setting realistic expectations, and helping new shooters have as much success as possible.
FWIW nobody is trying to dissuade new shooters from coming to try it out, but it would be irresponsible of us F-ers to tell somebody with equipment that is not up to the task that they will be fine with what they have. There are quite simply minimum requirements in order to play this game; some rifles meet them and others may not. It's not about excluding people, it's about setting realistic expectations, and helping new shooters have as much success as possible.
I'm really not sure how you got here from the advice/opinions that have been posted by F-Class shooters in this thread but I'm going to try a different tact this time. The following represent (in my opinion only) the MINIMUM equipment requirements for shooting an F-Class match at 900m/1000y:
1- A safe load that is faster than mach 1.2 at 900m/1000y. If you know your MV and your bullet BC this is easy to check on JBM Ballistics. BARREL LENGTH DOES NOT MATTER.
2- A barrel capable of withstanding up to 75 rounds a day of shooting.
3- Know your come-ups in 100m/100y yard increments from your zero to 900m/1000y. Have them written down.
4- A scope that has enough adjustment to dial in whatever elevation you need at 900m/1000y
5- A rifle that weighs less than 8.25kg including bipod for F-TR (.223 or .308 only), or less than 10kg for F-Open (any calibre up to 8mm)
That's it. If you can satisfy these requirements you will undoubtedly be welcomed with open arms at any F-Class match.
I'd be willing to bet after trying it a few times 1) you'll love it, and 2) if it's important for you to be competitive you'll be reevaluating your equipment for the next time out.
I don't understand the notion that F-Class shooters are trying to exclude new shooters because they don't have the right gear, or the offense that is being taken by those who might happen to have short barreled rifles. Would you be offended if we were to tell you that your 4x4 wasn't ideally suited for autocross? Different tools for different games. Conversely, an F-Class gun is likely going to make for a pretty impractical hunting/tactical rifle.
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Everyone has to start somewhere.
Maybe if you guys get in touch with the match organizers and share your thoughts on the matter they will bring back the factory class.
Don't forget practice dates are not competitions and they have plenty of practice dates.
Maybe if you guys get in touch with the match organizers and share your thoughts on the matter they will bring back the factory class.
Don't forget practice dates are not competitions and they have plenty of practice dates.
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
F-Class, Drag Racing, etc is like any sport and equipment race. Bring it on and see what you can do. If short barrels is your thing give it try. No one will laugh at you. All are welcome always. There are no rules against short or long barrels within the laws.
For a new shooter it's always a learning curve.
For a new shooter it's always a learning curve.
Maybe you need to step back and take the perspective of a new/novice shooter that can't afford new/better/custom equipment, and re-read the responses to equipment related questions in this forum. The impression given is that the sport is an elitist clique, where people with inexpensive equipment aren't welcome. The "welcome" is the equivalent of a golf clap; sure, come on on out, we'll make sure to humiliate you so that you don't come back. Not said directly, but the undertones strongly imply it. I can't count the number of times I've directed new shooters over to F-class and they've shied away because they were basically told/give the impression that their equipment wouldn't work at all at 1k. The message is rarely: "Come on out. Have fun, it doesn't matter how you do, you'll learn a lot". It's: "this is what is required to win, if you're shooting anything less, you're wasting your time and ours". Whether that is the intend or not is irrelevant, that is the message many are getting.
There is a difference between saying something won't be competitive and something outright won't work. Some of these people just want to go out and TRY shooting at 1000 yards. There is no intent to win. But, they aren't going to go out and try if they feel their going to be looked down on due to their equipment/performance, of if they're told their equipment won't get a bullet to 1000 yards.
I don't understand why this approach seems odd to you. To me, this looks like the common sense approach to promoting a sport.
Happy to take a step back, as it was only a couple of years ago that I WAS the new shooter with a factory rifle who couldn't afford/didn't have custom equipment or any experience reloading. I was welcomed and mentored and helped along by many experienced shooters at the NCRRA and ORA as well as members on this forum, and learned what I wanted/needed to do to get better by actually doing it, by going to practice days, by making dumb mistakes, and by finishing last at competitions.
The point of this forum is to try and share information, and being realistic about the tools required to do a job shouldn't be construed as being elitist. This attitude is why I tried to clarify the "must haves" in a way that would help to illustrate that it really doesn't take much to get involved. I'm sure there are lots of guys who have rifles in their safes that are more than capable! This list doesn't include a $4k scope, or a $1500 action, or even a $600 scale, but it is an attempt to try and capture what is the bare minimum that "works" for F-Class shooting. Is it in the best interest of the sport or the shooter to have someone show up to an F-Class match with an SKS and a 9x scope? How do you communicate to that shooter that what they have is not suited to what they want to do without being accused of being "an elitist"?
Ultimately it comes down to the shooter's motivation; if all you want to do is find out what it's like to shoot at 1000y then by all means you should, and most clubs/ranges that have those facilities have practice and/or intro days designed for exactly that purpose. If through those practice/intro days you decide you want to compete in F-Class (meaning participate, not necessarily try to win) then there's likely more you'll want/need to do other than just showing up at the range on match day.
I'm not sure why you appear to have an axe to grind with the F-Class community but it's really unfortunate that your negative comments are serving only to prejudice new shooters, especially when there are active F-Class shooters on this thread who are genuinely trying to help. I hope those who are interested in shooting F-Class can see through that, and will take the time to contact their PRA and come out to a range to try it. If there is anyone in the Ottawa area who's interested please PM me and I would be happy to bring you out to Connaught...even if you've only got a 20" barrel.
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I'm not sure why you appear to have an axe to grind with the F-Class community but it's really unfortunate that your negative comments are serving only to prejudice new shooters, especially when there are active F-Class shooters on this thread who are genuinely trying to help. I hope those who are interested in shooting F-Class can see through that, and will take the time to contact their PRA and come out to a range to try it. If there is anyone in the Ottawa area who's interested please PM me and I would be happy to bring you out to Connaught...even if you've only got a 20" barrel.
I think I've been quite clear that my "axe" has to do with new shooters being dissuaded from going out and shooting. Does the comment below sound helpful?
Does it sound to you that the shooters mentioned above felt like they were "welcomed with open arms" and were being helped? One would think they would have come back, no? Do you think this makes it sound appealing to someone with a 20" to come out and try? Like they're going to be "welcomed with open arms" if they do? Don't try and blame me for pointing out that some of you guys are crapping in your own nest.
Your above post is a good one, it's a shame that so many of the replies don't convey the same message. You would have a lot more people out there shooting factory rifles if they did.
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
Underthegun, there many reasons why you should try out F Class shooting. First off, you know you want to stretch out, and check your capabilities and confidence. You're not shooting with prima donnas, just shooters that learned some hard lessons in being accurate at 1K. If your bullets are supersonic at 1000 yards, and your velocity extreme spread is tolerably low...go for it. Again, you have to do your homework. BTW, why wait until next summer, go this summer. I assume you are thinking of shooting at St. Charles in Winnipeg. Folks out there are pretty friendly.
The MPRA guys are a welcoming bunch. I hope to shoot at 500 yards on Wednesday with my heavily reworked Rem 700. I've even brought out my Norinco M14 and shot it at 600 yards, and no one said, "you're wasting your time". How you score, is your own business, but there are certainly guys that will provide helpful advice on equipment and technique. I wouldn't take it as snobbery.
This happened to a friend who entered some F Class matches at Connaught. He was a beginner; was shooting a Steyr SSG Match with a ZF84 scope, and decent handloads. I've shot it, it is accurate, and groups all the way out. He was paired with a "very competitive" shooter who told him not to get in his way; he was there to compete, and didn't want to be put off by a novice. Made to feel a couple of inches high.
Yes when I do try it will be in Winnipeg. I would try this summer, but I don't have the time this year. I do have a load worked up with a S.D. In the single digits, and it is super sonic out to around 1150 yards according to the ballistics calculator I use.
That "very competitive" shooter should have been reported to the CRO for unsportsman like conduct and sent packing off the range, to be delt with by the match committee.
It is nice that you have a match committee to deal with that sort of thing. Many PRAs do not, and unfortunately, I've heard similar encounters with my local PRA. I hate to hear stories like the one above in shooting sports. It is already a taboo and dying sport. A couple of bad apples can do a lot of harm to the hobby.
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I see most of the posts in this thread refer to F-Class in Ontario so I thought I'd chime in with my experiences in BC. While I'd shot handguns and longarms ( both in and out of civvie street ) since the mid 70's, it wasn't until five years or so ago that I tried F-Class and I did so at the KTSA in Kamloops BC which was the home range of the founder of F-Class Mr.George 'Farky' Farquharson. I was a bit apprehensive about trying this game and certainly didn't have the 'right' gear as I entered a match using a heavy barreled factory Savage chambered in .223 that was housed in a Choate varmint stock. For glass I had a Falcon Menace 4.5-18x56. Having read some posts on here it sounds like a few blokes in Ontario would have certainly looked down on me at their matches but the folks in Kamloops - People who have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds and won a few trophies in their day - were to a person supportive and helpful and freely gave me tips and advice.
While I no longer compete with a factory rifle, it was the warm welcome that I got that first season that convinced me this was a game worth playing. I'd hope that everyone remembers that all shooters have to start somewhere.
While I no longer compete with a factory rifle, it was the warm welcome that I got that first season that convinced me this was a game worth playing. I'd hope that everyone remembers that all shooters have to start somewhere.
I have shot a couple of BCRA F-Class matches with my "Tactical" rifle and held my own........managed to place 2nd in my first F-Class match at the BCRA 300 yard UIT championships held at Mission a few years back..........I found almost all of the shooters there helpful and patient with people new to the sport...........with everything, there were a couple of people who looked down on those who didn't have the latest and greatest specific F-Class gear ( and I ended up beating them.....Lol.).............but you ignore those people and go out there and have fun and shoot!!!!!!!
i would have to second the post above. my 'first time' with the fclass crowd was in kamloops as well, last year.
loved it so much that we're all going back in june, even talked a buddy into coming and running my 20"er this time.
i have moved up to a 28" with peirce action, only because i got a great deal on it and was able to trade. i would easily have shown up again running my 20'' if that's all i had. the difference is we only run to 500m at kamloops.
i haven't checked the velocity of the 90 bt target bergers i'm running, so can't comment on how they would do at 1000. definitely a lot better choices for cartridge and bullet for the long game, but who says you have to shoot beyond 600m if you don't want to or don't have the gear yet?
get in, have fun, do some learning, and decide if you want to enter the equipment race.
the four of us were very well received and welcomed i thought last year. we were total rookies, didn't even know how to pull and score targets. got some great help from a veteran shooter/wind reader, and did alright, finishing mid pack of 36 or so guys. lee
loved it so much that we're all going back in june, even talked a buddy into coming and running my 20"er this time.
i have moved up to a 28" with peirce action, only because i got a great deal on it and was able to trade. i would easily have shown up again running my 20'' if that's all i had. the difference is we only run to 500m at kamloops.
i haven't checked the velocity of the 90 bt target bergers i'm running, so can't comment on how they would do at 1000. definitely a lot better choices for cartridge and bullet for the long game, but who says you have to shoot beyond 600m if you don't want to or don't have the gear yet?
get in, have fun, do some learning, and decide if you want to enter the equipment race.
the four of us were very well received and welcomed i thought last year. we were total rookies, didn't even know how to pull and score targets. got some great help from a veteran shooter/wind reader, and did alright, finishing mid pack of 36 or so guys. lee
first, I think to determine was is precision required for your expectation..... If you are able to hit a 2.5" clay at 1000yds...shot after shot...than your a Shooting GOD...that is nothing less than the best shooter on earth...
As we talk about F-Class, at let say a 1000yds, getting "precision" at this distance is being able to adjust the "margin of error" in juging conditions. When you have a ballistics than keep this margin down, it can only keep your bullet closer to the 5....except for the shooting god that hit every time.
this year, I made the test of trying a 34in pipe...and as mentioned there is a lot of vibration that can be felt behind the rifle....but....it is accurate (1/4moa). As I ahd a discussion with Bartlein, they confirm that what make a barrel whoot, is how straight it is and reloading will find the node. My node is actually 1.2gr wide and shoot from 0.2moa to 0.35moa......at 2780fps...with a 200gr Hybrid...single base powder so.....loooooong barrel wil shoot if you give them what they need.
As we talk about F-Class, at let say a 1000yds, getting "precision" at this distance is being able to adjust the "margin of error" in juging conditions. When you have a ballistics than keep this margin down, it can only keep your bullet closer to the 5....except for the shooting god that hit every time.
this year, I made the test of trying a 34in pipe...and as mentioned there is a lot of vibration that can be felt behind the rifle....but....it is accurate (1/4moa). As I ahd a discussion with Bartlein, they confirm that what make a barrel whoot, is how straight it is and reloading will find the node. My node is actually 1.2gr wide and shoot from 0.2moa to 0.35moa......at 2780fps...with a 200gr Hybrid...single base powder so.....loooooong barrel wil shoot if you give them what they need.
