I have to agree- the Kamloops F-class bunch are the nicest, most supportive group of shooters you'll ever meet. Other commitments and tight money have kept me away, but I look forward to returning to the KTSA ranges for the various club-level matches they hold every year.
F Class with short barrel?
- Thread starter Robbs
- Start date
I have to agree- the Kamloops F-class bunch are the nicest, most supportive group of shooters you'll ever meet. Other commitments and tight money have kept me away, but I look forward to returning to the KTSA ranges for the various club-level matches they hold every year.
This is great to hear, I've signed up for the Art Bourne Memorial at the end of the month, it'll be my first match....have to admit I'm getting a little nervous having never shot in an official match of any kind.
Show up early (even Friday for sight in), introduce yourself as a "Newb" to the sport and you should have no problems.
Unfortunately I will not be at the match as the Western Canada F-Class Championships are the same weekend in Winnipeg but good luck and most of all, have fun and learn.
Hey I with you Norm....
After reading this thread I have learned how to shoot much better at 1000 yards, I'm cutting 10 inches off my barrel.
With the anticipated increase in both accuracy and velocity I'll be shooting fruit flies at 1500 yards!
After reading this thread I have learned how to shoot much better at 1000 yards, I'm cutting 10 inches off my barrel.
With the anticipated increase in both accuracy and velocity I'll be shooting fruit flies at 1500 yards!
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Just for interest I shot my .308 Win 20" rifle in an F-class match that had maximum distances of 600m. I was confident that the load I was using was mach 1.2
at those distances. Got a few second looks but no friction. I think of it as my stealth rifle because it is a Ruger 77 MKII stainless with the original synthetic stock with a MacLennan barrel configured with a sporter contour, Timney trigger,
properly bedded, a bedded and shimmed Farrell 20MOA rail. a Nikon 4-16x42 with target knobs plus sun shade, a Pachymer SC100 recoil pad, Eagle stock pack with foam comb spacers and Pachmyer sling sluds. Harris bipod for the front.
It has as much accuracy as the operator is capable of delivering.
If I swap in a different optic and drop the bipod it looks pretty much like a run-of-the-mill factory hunting rifle.
Ruger MKII rifles aren't very popular for F-class builds
at those distances. Got a few second looks but no friction. I think of it as my stealth rifle because it is a Ruger 77 MKII stainless with the original synthetic stock with a MacLennan barrel configured with a sporter contour, Timney trigger,
properly bedded, a bedded and shimmed Farrell 20MOA rail. a Nikon 4-16x42 with target knobs plus sun shade, a Pachymer SC100 recoil pad, Eagle stock pack with foam comb spacers and Pachmyer sling sluds. Harris bipod for the front.
It has as much accuracy as the operator is capable of delivering.
If I swap in a different optic and drop the bipod it looks pretty much like a run-of-the-mill factory hunting rifle.
Ruger MKII rifles aren't very popular for F-class builds
Well, as Cyanide said, if you can show up on Friday (ask when the gate will be open), once all the targets/frames are set up and wind flags are planted, there's usually a sight-in period: a few volunteer to mark targets while others sight in, then swap over while the first bunch marks targets. By the way, this teaches you how the shots are scored, and gives you some appreciation for the job the target markers do on the day of the match. Often the wind gets blowing hard there, and sometimes the markers are having to hold the target frames steady in the wind. And you'll definitely learn about correcting for the wind, too
In the matches I've attended, they start at 300 meters, so once you're sighted in at that distance, you'll be good to go on the day of the match. Moving up to 500 meters is merely an adjustment on the scope: mine is somewhere around 20 clicks upward if memory serves.
On the day of the match, it usually goes like this: they'll post the relays (who shoots, in what order, and on which target) and let's say you're assigned to target 4. Find out who shoots immediately before you on that target, so you'll know who you're following. When that person finishes their string, they'll pack up their gear and then move to the small seat/desk behind the shooting ramp (the slightly inclined, carpeted surface you lay down on to shoot), where they will score for you when you shoot your string. When you put your gear and rifle down on that ramp, hand the previous shooter (now your scorer) your score sheet. Each shot you send downrange is marked by the target pullers, and the scorer behind you will mark those values down on your score sheet until you're finished. Once you're done your string, remove your gear to make room for the next shooter, sign the score sheet your scorer will have ready for you and hand it in to the person collecting them, and get settled in to score for the next shooter. There'll be a spotting scope for you to watch through.
Don't worry, you'll be taught how to read the markers on the targets so you'll know what the scores are, and it will all make sense as you go along. It is confusing at first, but you'll be fine. A couple of points: at first, it's startling to be concentrating on your shot and then have the guy next to you take his shot, or the shooter on each side of you let go almost simultaneously, and this can startle you into pulling your trigger before you're ready, but you quickly get used to that. The other thing that I had to do when scoring is keep myself concentrated on the shooter and his/her shots, and which shot it is, and the score, and not get distracted by the other things going on around me. It's embarrassing to have ask the shooter "Um, was that your fifth, or sixth shot?" Ask me how I know...
Oh, and when you're shooting, as obvious as this sounds, do make sure you're shooting at your target, and not the next one over. Crossfires do happen, but they're embarrassing too!
One last thing that's very cool to see: when you're scoring for the shooter who follows you, and you're watching their target through the spotting scope, you'll notice that as they take their shot, you can actually see the wake of the bullet as it goes downrange and hits the target.. You can soon almost begin to tell what the score will be, based on what you're seeing.
When I compete, I'm really just competing against myself. I know there are many more experienced shooters than I, and I will likely not be winning any gongs, but that's ok. I'm there to learn, and have fun doing so. You'll learn a lot, and some of the scores you'll see are amazing. A great facility, and a great bunch of folks, too. Best of luck, and enjoy!
Thanks guys, getting an idea how the match will go helps a lot.
I can't make the friday sight in, wish I could. Really painful as I'm starting a subdivision on the other side of the valley from the range...been keeping tabs on the pulp mill stack though.
I'm sure it'll be fine, someone has to come in last.
I can't make the friday sight in, wish I could. Really painful as I'm starting a subdivision on the other side of the valley from the range...been keeping tabs on the pulp mill stack though
. I'm sure it'll be fine, someone has to come in last
.Here’s the rub some top shooters feel when a newby enters a big F-Class match….
There are guys that go into these matches with several thousand (or tens of thousands) dollars invested who are in it to win. Since we currently shoot in three man squads alternating shots, the performance of your two shooting partners can affect your score. If you get into a squad of top shooters who are placing shots in the center of the target, scoring is done more quickly and rounds get down range in shorter succession. This improves the odds of each shooter getting a better score because there is less time for wind conditions to change during the event.
Conversely, when paired with a newby or newbys the scoring pace slows down. Newbys typically struggle to keep pace and don’t shoot very well and when a top shooter gets into a situation like this, his score can get dragged down sometimes significantly due to the slowness of the shooting and scoring. Sometimes the newbys cannot even hit the target more than once every two or three shots. When a top scoring shooter gets into this situation his score can get so adversely affected that he can easily loose his position in first place.
One could argue that is just the way the game is played and everyone needs to suck it up. Well since this is the format in Canada we shooters don’t really have any choice. But you must question the validity of the win when the difference between two shooters scores may have been decided by who they were squadded with.
Understanding the above, I can see why there may have been some sort of dialogue between one of these guys who are in it to win and a guy who may not have been hitting the target - even if I don't agree with it and have personally never witnessed such a thing.
In my opinion, shooters should be squadded with individuals based on score, just like golfers, or simply allowed to shoot single string. This would take the effect described above out of the game and in my opinion, make the sport more fair. It would also allow new shooters to come and enjoy the game with others of a similar skill level without the social pressure to not pull a top shooter out of position.
Since squads are created in a supposedly random order it may not be considered good manners by some competitors for other shooters to go into a big match if not reasonably well prepared, much like talking while a golfer tries to line up a put.
In a certain sense, F-Class in Canada is actually being played currently as a sort of ad lib team event because the other shooters in your squad can affect your own scores.
BTW - Other countries do not shoot in squads for F-Class. Each person has the target to himself, just to avoid the situation described above.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the above. I just understand that some people take that view when a big match is on the line. It's not fair to attack a competitive shooter for feeling this way. He's just there to compete in what he hopes is a fair match. It's the people who set the rules who are in the position to change it or dismiss the complaints that come as a bi-product of the match structure.
There are guys that go into these matches with several thousand (or tens of thousands) dollars invested who are in it to win. Since we currently shoot in three man squads alternating shots, the performance of your two shooting partners can affect your score. If you get into a squad of top shooters who are placing shots in the center of the target, scoring is done more quickly and rounds get down range in shorter succession. This improves the odds of each shooter getting a better score because there is less time for wind conditions to change during the event.
Conversely, when paired with a newby or newbys the scoring pace slows down. Newbys typically struggle to keep pace and don’t shoot very well and when a top shooter gets into a situation like this, his score can get dragged down sometimes significantly due to the slowness of the shooting and scoring. Sometimes the newbys cannot even hit the target more than once every two or three shots. When a top scoring shooter gets into this situation his score can get so adversely affected that he can easily loose his position in first place.
One could argue that is just the way the game is played and everyone needs to suck it up. Well since this is the format in Canada we shooters don’t really have any choice. But you must question the validity of the win when the difference between two shooters scores may have been decided by who they were squadded with.
Understanding the above, I can see why there may have been some sort of dialogue between one of these guys who are in it to win and a guy who may not have been hitting the target - even if I don't agree with it and have personally never witnessed such a thing.
In my opinion, shooters should be squadded with individuals based on score, just like golfers, or simply allowed to shoot single string. This would take the effect described above out of the game and in my opinion, make the sport more fair. It would also allow new shooters to come and enjoy the game with others of a similar skill level without the social pressure to not pull a top shooter out of position.
Since squads are created in a supposedly random order it may not be considered good manners by some competitors for other shooters to go into a big match if not reasonably well prepared, much like talking while a golfer tries to line up a put.
In a certain sense, F-Class in Canada is actually being played currently as a sort of ad lib team event because the other shooters in your squad can affect your own scores.
BTW - Other countries do not shoot in squads for F-Class. Each person has the target to himself, just to avoid the situation described above.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the above. I just understand that some people take that view when a big match is on the line. It's not fair to attack a competitive shooter for feeling this way. He's just there to compete in what he hopes is a fair match. It's the people who set the rules who are in the position to change it or dismiss the complaints that come as a bi-product of the match structure.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Wow, that is some interesting perspective on the game
AFAIK, each shooter in said squad has 45 secs to take their shot. They are under NO obligation to shoot any faster THEN HE OR SHE WANTS TO within allocated time. Where their shot goes is of entirely NO concern to the next shooter unless of course, that next shooter desparately needs the previous shot to act as a sighter.
There is also NO requirement for a time frame to mark and send up the target. Of course, the goal is for all scorers to do their best in providing the faster service BUT there is no clock ticking.
SOOOOOOO, I am happy to shoot with ANY shooter either new or experienced. If they shoot within the rules, all is well. They just have to remind me its my turn to shoot and who I should be keeping score for
Oh by the way, if you are following me and hoping I will show the way..... sometimes a 4 is worth the 3 that follows....
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I can assure you that if you went to a match in Chilliwack, Mission or Kamloops (never shot on the Island but expect the same), the shooters are plenty willing, and able to help.
How many top level sports have competitors tearing apart their rigs to offer parts to another competitor?
Take a several hour drive back and forth to rebuild a competitors rifle?
Lent their rifles and ammo so another competitor could complete? And get beat by their own stuff.....
Each has their own way of approaching competition and what it means to "Win". For me, precision shooting is about me and the WIND. When I beat the wind, I usually place very strongly.
When I don't, nothing anyone else does is going to help or hurt.
Hopefully, you will venture out and see what MOST shooters are like....
Jerry
Squadded shoot is what it is. Too bad if you get squadded with a slow shooter(s) or are shooting an a relay that is a little more difficult than another relay. I have been to bigger shoots like Bisley where you may be on relay 7. Relay 1-3 had great weather and very little wind changes. Relays 4-5 shot in the pissing down rain and relays 6-7 fought quick changing winds while laying in the mud. Luck of the draw, stop whining about it. The winner of the match can come out of any relay regardless of the weather conditions or who they are squadded with. It is the shooters skill and his attitude that will win the match.
Squadding shooters together with like skills does nothing to help grow the sport. What is does is create elitism. If you like the way pro golfers are paired up for tournaments, go take up golf, shooting is another game.
Squadding shooters together with like skills does nothing to help grow the sport. What is does is create elitism. If you like the way pro golfers are paired up for tournaments, go take up golf, shooting is another game.
and there it is...
There is an elephant in the room and that's too bad, we have no intentions of doing anything about it, just suck it up.
And the winner is....
Some guy who got lucky squaddings all weekend.
<<<Insert your best golf clap here.>>>
PS: Don’t say anything about the elephant or you will get labeled an elitist, regardless of how many shooters complain about the elephant on the side lines yet remain silent at the meetings. After all, they don't want to get labeled too.
There is an elephant in the room and that's too bad, we have no intentions of doing anything about it, just suck it up.
And the winner is....
Some guy who got lucky squaddings all weekend.
<<<Insert your best golf clap here.>>>
PS: Don’t say anything about the elephant or you will get labeled an elitist, regardless of how many shooters complain about the elephant on the side lines yet remain silent at the meetings. After all, they don't want to get labeled too.
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Maybe you should get involved in running a match, just once. Squadding for bigger matches is done weeks or months ahead of time. If you want the world to revolve around you, start getting involved in the organiziation and stop whinning about it.
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
Do yourself a favour. Stop reading these threads and enjoy some competition. The internet has never been the answer.
Good and bad experiences are in the real world, not here.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
the simplest solution for you would be to shoot in the US. String fire - so no one to worry about. Paid pullers if desired so you can ensure lightening fast resets - they might even tolerate getting scolded. And if you work into the "right" crowds, you might get the relays and targets that offer the best chance of success. I hear that some ranges even have part of the lines COVERED.
There are ways for you to chase the spotter and US matches can't be all that far from you????
In the commonwealth, the game is played differently and I feel a more pure sport. When it is your turn to shoot you shoot - what mother nature throws at you is just the adversity that improves the breed.
You posted a pic of the super amazing 600yds group. As the article suggested, this was shot in less then ideal conditions. Interesting what can happen when great prep, practise and skill meets opportunity.
I have been on the same relay where 900m Clean was shot - TWICE. The rest of us (mixed FTR and Open shooters) were fighting for 4's and damn happy to get them. Talk about horrid conditions BUT these 2 gents showed us what can be done in the wicked winds WHEN you have the gear and skills to make it happen.
And they were shooting them wussy 6mm bullets too.
I am thankful that F class will always be about shooters skill then gear or some "stacked" process.
Just remember, there is a simple solution to your concerns. If not, SUCK IT UP.... This is how we shoot up here.
Oh by the way, in sports psycology, a huge amount of time is spent helping the althetic find their "happy place" even when conditions are horrid. To stay on task and perform despite less then ideal circumstances.
for the many that focus on the gloom and why things are wrong.... Thanks for coming out.... You have already LOST.
And Yes, there are ants, ticks, mosquitoes, flies, cows, Deer, Elk, clouds, wind, heat, cold, rain, snow, hail, sleet, dogs, cats, men that dont use deoderant, or even shoot CUSTOM actions.
How are we to ever cope? Maybe I should tweet my friends for support.....
YMMV
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Hopefully, he will not venture to Raton, NM.
If you start off on the "left" side of the range in the morning, you will face the dreaded Vertical, then you will end up in the "middle" during the most turbulent time of day.
You want to start as far "right" as possible and the whole day will be just a walk in the park.....
Good luck with that but you will know your FATE by 7:30 each morning. On the up side, you could always pull out if you are starting relay 3 on targerts 1 to 25. What's the point, you have all the disadvantages already.
Save the time and wear on the barrel and head for the mall.....
Jerry
