F Class with short barrel?

Syxx15 said:
If you want to change the style of format in any event. Bring it up with the F-Class rep that is on council. Come up with a proposal and if you want to volunteer to run a new format, present it to the members of council at the program meeting in the fall or at the AGM, then you will have floor and then you can discuss it in front of everyone under "any new business to the match program". Then the council will take it under consideration and discuss it with the programs committee. The past years that I have been to the AGM, I have not seen you at the AGM to bring your issue up or the F-Class rep.
Click to expand...

Now this is refreshing. Here's the rational person on CGN who is receptive to possible improvements. This is a much more preferred response to being told to go pound salt and get out of the game as is so often the knee jerk come back when improvements are suggested.

There are others however who may be better suited to promoting this. You may have noticed that I am no politician.
 
Last edited:
carbonrod said:
+1. I have always thought that we need to get more people involved in competitive shooting of all types. To do otherwise will have a great negative effect on shooting as a whole in the next couple of years.

There are a number of federally imposed obstacles that get in the way of shooting sports without shooting styles, and individual clubs adding more. But of course, if you are uber-concerned with the 1 point loss a new competitor may have cost you, the best way for you to stop that is to chase people away from the sport right?
Click to expand...

Speaking as one of those old shooters but new to F-class shooting (hope to attend a match next summer), it is very intimidating - especially when I look at the photos and read the gear discussions. My gear is an old blanket that my wife lets me use, home made sand bag for the rear, harris knock off bipod. 1903A3 action with new heavy barrel, wood stock with no adjustments in it, but alot of dings as it is my hunting rifle and has gotten banged around over the years and hopefully in the next week a SIII scope.

Its not going to compare to all the cool looking $3000 stocks, S&B/Premier/NF scopes, custom designed blankets, and rifles that look like they were designed for the space race. Nothing wrong with them but with brats and a wife I can't afford to sink that kinda coin into a hobby. But I def'n would like to try competing - not expecting to place or whatever but shooting with other enthusiasts is what I would look forward to most. I would have no problem getting "ranked" into a squad if my inferior equipment/shooting skill is affecting a serious competitor. I do kind of fail to understand how me taking longer to shoot is going to affect anothers shooting. If it is wind changes who says that earlier is better? How does my shooting slow and like sh1t affect you shooting after me? I didn't think my inferior shooting was contagious.
 
I shouldn't interject in this debate as I am a pretty new shooter and have only participated in 2 fclass events so far but here goes...

For the first relay, I took my time to focus on all the fundamentals but was within the alotted time for each shot. I did have a couple of people who were crusty about my time taken for each shot. I then tried to speed up as I didn't want to mess anyone up. It was very satisfying when I beat the crusty individuals by a decent margin overall even after speeding up for all the other 5 relays.

I haven't done a match since but not even a little because of not friendly people. Mostly work and family health issues.

It is competition afterall and I can understand the competitive spirit. For me I don't care if I win only that perform up to my capability and always striving to improve. I plan to compete a lot more in the future and look forward to fun times with you all!!
 
Last edited:
(dunno if I should comment, since this has really drifted off the original topic; new thread, maybe?)

BadAsMo and NormB seem to have rubbed people the wrong way on this, but what they say is justified.

Yes Des or Alain or Jim P are often the last ones up on a relay and more often than not the match winner too. They are slow (but excellent) shooters, however I think that they prefer to shoot with somebody who is a good shooter and a prompt shooter.

Yes a shooting partner can take up to 60 seconds to break a shot and still be operating within the rules. BUT, this is not what's usually done, especially when two F-Class shooters are shooting together, or an F-Class shooter is shooting with a skilled TR shooter. Just because a slow shooting partner isn't breaking the rules, does not mean that the other shooter is not having a potential disadvantage imposed on him.

There are problems with all the possible solutions I am aware of:

- have F-Class competitions be fired single-string. While this is a good way to fire a championship match, the problem is that if this is our normal way of shooting, it can cripple the development of shooting skills. So it's a short term plus but a long term minus for our shooters' talents.

- only squad F-Class shooters together, or only squad topnotch shooters together. This keeps things fair for serious competitors, but there's a serious price to pay for slicing off F-Class shooters from TR shooters, or the top-level shooters from the rest. It's a 'cure', but a cure that might make our sport sick and die.

Myself, I am not capable of being a top competitor and doing anything else. So on any given day at the range, I decide which mode I am operating in. If there is a newbie to be mentored, or if I am the match director, I 'write off' the day as a serious competitive exercise - my principal purpose that day is to run the match well and/or make sure that one or more new shooters have a really great experience shooting. On occasions where I don't have other things to do, that's when I try to get 'serious' and do my best to be as competitive as possible - and this involves a conscious neglect of all other things on the range. I don't do this to be a selfish or miserable SOB, rather, I need 100% of my time and attention if I am to have any hope of shooting really well.
 
janssen said:
Speaking as one of those old shooters but new to F-class shooting (hope to attend a match next summer), it is very intimidating - especially when I look at the photos and read the gear discussions. My gear is an old blanket that my wife lets me use, home made sand bag for the rear, harris knock off bipod. 1903A3 action with new heavy barrel, wood stock with no adjustments in it, but alot of dings as it is my hunting rifle and has gotten banged around over the years and hopefully in the next week a SIII scope.

Its not going to compare to all the cool looking $3000 stocks, S&B/Premier/NF scopes, custom designed blankets, and rifles that look like they were designed for the space race. Nothing wrong with them but with brats and a wife I can't afford to sink that kinda coin into a hobby. But I def'n would like to try competing - not expecting to place or whatever but shooting with other enthusiasts is what I would look forward to most. I would have no problem getting "ranked" into a squad if my inferior equipment/shooting skill is affecting a serious competitor. I do kind of fail to understand how me taking longer to shoot is going to affect anothers shooting. If it is wind changes who says that earlier is better? How does my shooting slow and like sh1t affect you shooting after me? I didn't think my inferior shooting was contagious.
Click to expand...

I hope you make a match, and enjoy the snot out of it. The rifle you shoot will likely be more similar to the original F-class/TR rigs than anything else out there. And hopefully your smile will be bigger.

As far as the gear barrier, I've always had a policy of offering the same gear I compete with to any new shooter provided they buy appropriate factory ammo, but even so, find the barriers to slight discipline changes high.
 
NormB said:
maynard said:
Total BS Norm. I have seen guys like Des, Jimmy P, and Alain being the last guys to get up off the line./QUOTE]
When you and they compete in F-class your opinion may be worth something until then it is "total BS".

NormB
Click to expand...

Last years ORA Annual Provincial Matches, 25 F Class shooters and 98 TR shooters.

Last years DCRA including the National F Class Championship. 39 F Class Shooters and 273 TR shooters.

Not sure what world you live in Norm, but the tail does not wag the dog where I come from.

Once the number of F Class shooters out-numbers the TR shooters around the commonwealth shooting world, things might change.
Click to expand...
 
BadAsMo said:
And you think this is fair?????
The fact that one shooter is allowed to influence the performance of others is total BS.

A shooter should be permitted to shoot without being hassled or mind F%%$CKED by his competitors.

This is clearly an indication that there is something very wrong with the shooting format!

I just cant understand the thick headed stubbornness to cling to such an ill conceived concept and habitually reject a simple common sense solution.


F-CLASS IS NOT TR !!!!!!
Click to expand...

Did you watch the INDY 500 a few weekends back? Last few laps, driver works his brains off to get to the front. YELLOW comes out - In this race, you know you are screwed as the restarts always favored number 2 and 3. Well, on the restart guess what? #2 and 3 go rocketing past pushing him to Number 3.

A few laps later, ANOTHER YELLOW. Should be all good now? Sorry, race ends under yellow. Number 3 ends in #3 spot.

I guess he needs to protest the race so he can get his "WIN".... And we ARE talking millions of dollars at stake. maybe he should sue the driver that caused the yellow that caused him to loose his coverted position?

The ICFRA rules we shoot under apply to ALL competitors. Any shooter complying within those rules is just fine. If it is my turn to shoot and I don't like the conditions, you think I am going to rush cause you are getting a bit testy? You think I am going to change my match stretegy because you don't like the rules?

If winning that hunk of plastic is the end all, you better believe that EVERY competitor is going to run the rules as best they can to improve their position.

If all we are are glory seeking trophy huggers, why wouldn't we "affect" a competitor if within the rules?

So you might want to reconsider your stretegy and how others influence your results. Cause it is all about winning after all>>>>>>

As I said before, go south and shoot string. You will be much happier.

Jerry
 
rnbra-shooter said:
...
Yes a shooting partner can take up to 60 seconds to break a shot and still be operating within the rules. BUT, this is not what's usually done, especially when two F-Class shooters are shooting together, or an F-Class shooter is shooting with a skilled TR shooter. Just because a slow shooting partner isn't breaking the rules, does not mean that the other shooter is not having a potential disadvantage imposed on him.

There are problems with all the possible solutions I am aware of:

- have F-Class competitions be fired single-string. While this is a good way to fire a championship match, the problem is that if this is our normal way of shooting, it can cripple the development of shooting skills. So it's a short term plus but a long term minus for our shooters' talents.

- only squad F-Class shooters together, or only squad topnotch shooters together. This keeps things fair for serious competitors, but there's a serious price to pay for slicing off F-Class shooters from TR shooters, or the top-level shooters from the rest. It's a 'cure', but a cure that might make our sport sick and die.

.
Click to expand...

What is the wind dies down because another shooter took too long?

What if conditions improve?

What if that novice cant tell a pick up or a let off or a headwind from a tailwind?

Maybe watching where all their misses go might just be a BETTER indicator then shooting with a couple of guys that only give you V's and 5's to follow?

There will always be 2 ways to look at these type of situations. If the mental state is always gloomy, so will the results.

As I said before, most top athletes thrive under adverse conditions cause they KNOW they are gaining an advantage as their competitor think themselves OFF the podium.

YMMV.

Both of your points describe the NRA form of F class to the letter. Is it better? Worst? or just different?

Personally, I shoot to the rules of the event infront of me. If I can use something to help me be successful, why not? Do I go out of my way to affect or hurt another shooter? Of course, not. This is a sport where no shooter can directly affect another. BUT competing within the format of the event should not be distorted to suit anothers idea of right and wrong.

Don't like the rules, apply to change them. Otherwise, it is what it is
Jerry
 
It is no surprise this is such a hotly debated subject. Most of the competitors out there are recreational shooters, just nice people having a nice time. There might only be 15 or 20 guys in the country who shoot well enough and take F-Class seriously enough for this to affect them and only a few of those who have contributed to this thread.

I have seen it time after time where a certain guy wins a match because he was on the relay with the best weather conditions, when everyone on the opposite relay put up disastrous scores after the weather blew in – or vice versa. Having top guys dispersed over 2 relays and on shuffled targets does nothing more than create a luck factor for one of the top shooters who got the most good relays with the best weather and best shooting partners.

There is a fair way to conduct a match while protecting the interests of all concerned. We could simply squad shooters on a daily basis according to their ranking from yesterday. Top shooter gets the position on the right and they line up to his left based on score. This is certainly less confusing for match organizers than trying to figure out who goes where for every event. Another benefit to this is that it protects each competitor from squad manipulation by match organizers.

This way the top place shooters shoot shoulder to shoulder on the same target on the same relay. The winner would have done so by pure performance not luck. The second relay as spectators would be in an ideal place to observe and learn.

There is no trick to determining the shooting order, just look at the aggregate from yesterday and separate in groups of three for target assignments.

This business about letting newbies shoot with top guys in match competition is pure nonsense. That does not promote the sport it devalues it. New shooters have to earn the right to shoot among the best in match competition, they are not entitled to it. That is not elitism it’s just plain fair.

The skills, technology and equipment has grown leaps and bounds due to F-Class in recent years which is the fastest growing shooting sport in the world. The rules and match format simply need to evolve to keep pace.
 
Last edited:
What you are describing is right out of the NRA handbook.... Go South, you will be thrilled cause it is all that you could possibly want.

ICFRA is unlikely to change its shooting format but you are more the able to go where ever and submit your suggestions. The next worlds in 2017 could be rebuilt in your image...

If you want to organise an NRA style format, be a match organiser and set things up. I know it was quite an awakening shooting under such a different format but we adjusted.

Otherwise, the events run in Canada and pretty much the rest of the world, is how it is. Like it, don't like it... really doesn't matter.

Until you step up and be in a position to create change, the process continues unaffected...

And by the way, you made a very interesting observation. F class is indeed quite a fragmented sport in Canada due mostly to geography so we don't always get to meet every shooter. How do you classify a new shooter?

Since you like NRA styles of doing things, well they make you a HIGH MASTER.

If you are a good shooter, guess what, YOU MAY BE SHOOTING WITH NEWBIES EVERY MATCH...... :)
Jerry
 
BadAsMo said:
This business about letting newbies shoot with top guys in match competition is pure nonsense. That does not promote the sport it devalues it. New shooters have to earn the right to shoot among the best in match competition, they are not entitled to it. That is not elitism it’s just plain fair.
Click to expand...


This has me wondering, for the guys that are the top competitors. When did you guys practice to get to this point? private range behind the house, or just happen to be near a good range where you can shoot any day of the week outside of match schedule?
Cause I get the feeling some of us don't have many options other than showing up at 4-5 matches out of the year that we can get in when weather and time allows, doesn't exactly give much practice time and surely takes quite a bit more than that to get somewhere.



I definitely have no issue with being matched with people there to have fun and practice and makes sense to me to match the top guys together on score, as it is with most other sports.


thanks
 
Last edited:
This is a tough one to crack cause many areas just don't have easy access to actual LR ranges.

Crown land is your likely best opportunity. For some, that is a commute but it can offer the freedom to reach out. Affordable wireless gear makes scoring your self very easy and not all that expensive.

Private land - that is a bundle of worms but in some places, it can be made to work.

Scaled targets. If you have access to 300yds, even 200yds, you can get all the seat time you want by shooting rimfire. Ultimately, F class is a wind reading game - gear can only get you so far.

So with a decent rimfire and good ammo, you can scale the effects of drift to suit the combo you intend to compete with on the "big range". It works very well and shooting a light rimfire can be some of the toughest shooting you train with.

Get out there on a windy day and learn how to drive. The lowly rimfire ballistics at 300yds (or 285 or whatever) is very close to the generic 308 at 1000yds. Scale the targets, scale the scope mag, learn to move large amounts for changes in the air.

Big boom or small pop, ends up being the same skills.

Jerry
 
It's not a coincidence that the top F-TR guys coming out of the east are the same ones who are at every available competition, and practice day, and who spend a lot of time working on loads, technique, and all of the other little things that go to make them successful. FWIW I have never heard any of them complain about who they've been squadded with, and I applaud them for that. You get the respect that you give.

Some guys shoot fast, some guys shoot slow, sometimes the wind switches, other times it's steady; these are all things we can't control, and that we must learn to deal with in the system that we have adopted, and will likely continue to use (2017 FCWC WILL be Bisley style). Ultimately it forces you to become a better shooter.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom