F-Open or Stay F-TR?

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SouthPaw700

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So I've been itching to try some of the fancy calibers that F-Open shooters have access to. Basically I want to try a 7mm. I shot F-TR with a 308 last year, and I really enjoyed it. The reason I'm pondering a switch now is - one, I just thought it would be fun to try F-Open - two, I bought a brand new Barnard and have yet to choose a barrel to go on it.

Has anyone switched from F-TR to F-Open and thought it was better or worse? I know around here, F-TR seems to be quite a bit more popular. Anyway, just interested in hearing people's thoughts on the subject.
 
Almost three years ago I switched from F-TR to a full blown F-Open 7mm custom. I followed that up this past summer with a custom 6mmBR for the close stuff.

Now, I couldn't be happier. I'm loving the wind bucking capabilities of the 7mm at long range and am having a blast with the 6BR up close. It's like using a laser beam. I was playing a game with a F-TR shooter at a practice session a couple of months ago. He'd try to hit centre at 300m and I'd try to shoot out the peg of his spotting disk (Did it quite successfully :) ).

I have to admit for the first year there were several times I was ready to cut the 7mm gun up with a torch because the never ending problems I had with load development were driving me nuts. Once I finally got those sorted out it's been amazingly accurate for a big recoiling gun and a multiple match winner.

One thing you need to be prepared for is a big jump in the cost of playing. Whatever you spent on components in F-TR you can triple it (or for those switching from Metric to Imperial, double it and add $3000).
 
Speaking as an F/Tr shooter who hasn't tried F O, the extra cost to shoot is the biggest factor in not switching. I have definatly thought about it, but I like having a barrel last for a couple of seasons of heavy use. The last thing I want is to go into a National or World championship wondering if my barrel is going to last... I'd want to be my own gunsmith if shooting in the open class.
 
I don't know where the extra cost comes from. I use the same type of rifles (Rem XR100) and scopes for both classes. The only difference I see is the extra weight allowed for in F-O. I am actually starting to use the same rifle (in 308 Win) for both F-O and F-TR by just changing the use of bipods. I use a Rempel for most of the matches and switch to a Weins for the F-TR to make the weight ruling. By shooting a 308 in F-O I can switch rifles should the winds come up. If you choose an F-O cartridge where the barrel life is reasonable then the barrel cost is the same. Most 308 and 223 have a life span of about 3000 rounds for really accurate F-TR shooting and I have seen 6mmBR's give the same life. 6.5-284's and 7 WSM's aren't the cartridges to use and are fading from general use but a straight 284 or 300 short mag will give acceptable barrel life not to much different than a 223 and 308. Steve
 
Steve, how can you be competitive in the open class, w/ a .308? I can't see it being a realistive choice when shooting against the higger bc bullets once the conditions get up.

In terms of cost, I'm thinking about barrel life, extra component cost, and, to some extent, travel cost if forced to fly w/ the extra weight.
 
This is an experiment but if you shoot 210's from a 308 at over 2500 fps you equal the wind drift of a 6mmBR. I am getting 2592 fps with very low ES from my 308 using H4350. This is a temperature stable powder and only 200 fps slower than my 300 SAUM shooting the same bullets. My 300 is fully equal to a straight 284 shooting 180's and is easier to tune and the barrel life might be better. I really don't know the barrel life in the 300 but I have 1800 rounds on my 300 barrel and it is still shooting fantastically.

If the accuracy of the 308 will equal the 6 then I have a winner. The last weekend's match I tried this in didn't work well but I believe the rifle and loads weren't ready for prime time. The next match will prove my theory.

There is no real difference in the cost of the barrels (given a reasonable barrel life), component costs are the same (within reason), and there is no extra weight in my rifles.

The difference in cost between the 6mmBR and 300 Saum amounts to about $20 per match. The bullets are more for the 210's simply becasue they are bigger but the difference wouldn't be that much if you consider the costs between a 308 W and 300 Saum. The bullets are the same, the primers are the same, and the only difference is the amounts of powder which is 10 grains per shot. Not much!!

Steve
 
Cost differences For a 7mm F-Open 7mm/300WSM v .308 Win

Bullets: + $10-15/box of 100 Berger 155.5 .308 ~ $42/box. Berger 180 VLD ~ 52/box. throw in taxes and your up at the $12/box mark

Powder: + 20gr powder per shot. Using RL-25 which is more expensive per pound than Varget. So add $50 every 350 shots or $14.25/100

Case life is reduced. Can't give exact #'s yet as I'm still going on my first batch of 500 brass

Barrels: new barrel ~ every 1200 rds or roughly 3 to 4 times more often than a .308. At $450 for a match grade barrel your cost per shot (1200) shots is $0.375 per shot with the 7mm. For a .308 your cost per shot is $0.09 assuming a barrel life of 5000 rds. The difference per hundred shots is $28.50

Gunsmithing: chamber new barrels + uinstallation (unless you do that yourself) min $300 per barrel. Using 1200 shots again cost per shot of 7mm is .25 or $25/100. For .308 its $0.06 or $6/100. A difference of $19/100


So far we're at $10 (bullets) + 14.25(powder) + ? (brass) + 28.50 (barrel) + $19.00 (gunsmithing) = $101.75 per hundred shots

As you can see by my less than scientific estimate, it's roughly $1 per shot more to move up to a 7mm in F-open than it is to stay with a .308.

Consider that I shoot upwards of 1000 rds a year through my F-Open gun and you can see that it starts to add up.

It just keeps going... if you built the gun to the max 22 lb weight limit then you need a front rest. A top of the line rest will run you up to $1000 or beyond. I love the Remple bipod for stability but it is nowhere near as stable as my SEB rest.

Do you want a full custom F Class stock or is the factory Rem stock ok? Again, top level requires a custom stock.

Admit it or not, F-Open is at least in part an equipment race. If you're playing to win you are going to have to spend big $
 
I guess I should have stated up front that I assumed that the OP was seriously looking to compete at all distances, in all condiitions. In good conditions, pretty much any accurate cartridge can be competative. Once the distances get past midrange, and the wind starts switching, I think we can agree that the big cases throwing the high bc bullets at high speed are going to be more competative than the super accurate, but lower velocity rounds. For these reasons, I would only consider the 6br to be super competative out to 600 only. After that, you are giving something up to the higher performance rounds.

I am also working with the 210's in the .308. I tried h4350 and my load fell all apart at 800m. Maybe I need to try and retune it. I have had very nice results from R17, pushing the 210 bt's at 2650. They most certainly do shoulder through some significant conditions at that speed. I would like to experiment like you are suggesting- I'm just dubious about how competative one could be against top level competitors.

The extra weight that I was referring too was the front pedestal rest. It doesn't take much to get bumped over one's baggage allowance when trying to get all your gear to fly with your gear.

The extra cost to shoot is predicated on the assumption that one woul dbe shooting one of the proven long range cartriges- aeans somehting overboare that pushes a high BC bullet quite fast, and tends to sacrifice barrel life to do it.
 
I agree with the cost differences if you are shooting a 7WSM or 6.5-284 class of cartridges and that your costs are valid but I don't see the rest of the F-O world continuing along this cartridge track. For those that use them and want to pay the costs fine, but I don't believe you actually need these to win in F-O against anybody. I have placed very high in almost every match I have shot in this summer and I have shot in a ton of them using my 300 which appears to have a very long barrel life.

Most of the F-O world is moving to basically 2 cartridges, a 6mmBR or Dasher and a straight 284 Win. Some of us are playing with the 300 and 7mm short mags but very few. The only reason I have played with the 300 is Mick Mcphee. He builds superb 30 caliber barrels and is located where I live. When I built this one you couldn't buy 7mm components and barrels so went 30 caliber. It just happened to work out really well and I am staying with it. However, it did teach me that once you reach a certain level of bullet BC and velocity the cartridge really doesn't matter. I have won matches shooting against all of the 7mm cartridges this year.

At this level the driver counts more than the cartridge.

Regarding the 6mmBR, Richard D and Tommy F keep wining matches right out ot 900 meters using these against all cartridges so it is competive. In the strong winds they do run out of gas around 900 meters but other than that, they will give you a real run for your money. Don't discount them if you have an excellent driver like these two.

After seeing the people shooting using tripods, I prefer to stay with the Rempel. It is just my decision and choice but don't see any advantage to a tripod from my experience.

I do admire a beautiful Robertson stock and if Ian gets back into business I may order a GBF but I have had excellent results using a stock XR100 thumbhole stock so other than pride of ownership I don't see any advantage to a high priced stock.

Steve
 
This is funny cause I am wondering if I might not be better off switching from f-open to f-restricted.
The f-open game here in the maritimes seems to have few shooters compared to f-restricted,I have been to matches with as little as 2 open shooters.

Right now I have built a 6br and a 6slr for f-open and am thinking of building a 284 for a 7mm rig.
Also have a good shooting 308 for restricted,maybe next season I will bring 2 guns to the matches and decide when I get there if I will shoot open or restricted.
 
I used to shoot F OPen with a 6.5 Mystic/ 260 improved. Did well (got plaques on the wall)l, enjoyed it very much and so miss the ballistics.

I changed to the F TR and 223/90's this season. Took a bit to R&D a variety of things which was half the fun but added alot to my cost, time and energy.

But now, I have a baseline that works so changes from here will be much simpler.

I moved out of Open due in part to cost (I get stuff cheaper then you will), recoil (shoulder will not play with anything more then I was shooting) and time needed to keep rifles going.

Given the short barrel life, I had 3 rifles on the go. 1 for matches, 1 for practise, 1 for prepping new barrel.

I now have 2 simply because I want the freshest barrel I can use for all my matches. I could just as easily shoot 1 rifle given the much longer bore life. I also like to have a back up rifle at a big match just in case....

So consider not just the cost per bang but the support needed to keep Open rigs going and being competitive.

It's fun keeping up with the 7mm boomers using an itty bitty bullet and even going ahead in score if not for just a shot or two.... :)

There is nothing wrong with Open or TR. Shoot whatever interests you. Just be prepared for a much larger budget.

I truly enjoyed the tech of OPen.

I can certainly help you with barrels as needed.

Enjoy...

Jerry
 
SteveB said:
After seeing the people shooting using tripods, I prefer to stay with the Rempel. It is just my decision and choice but don't see any advantage to a tripod from my experience.

Steve
Click to expand...

As good as our skipods are, shooting with a proper pedestal rest is no comparison as far as consistency and repeatability is concerned.

PG's Seb is some GORGEOUS piece of kit.

And he gets to beat on it before every relay :HR:

Hope to shoot with you again next season....

Jerry
 
From a strictly shooting point of vue, I think that F-TR biggest advantage over F-Open is that a relatively low cost and very low recoil cartridge (223 Rem) can be competitive.
I never expected to say this, but after experimenting the entire summer with 3000fps 165gr VLD I realized that I hate recoil and should much better with a low recoil cartridges.

Alex
 
Mystic Precision said:
I used to shoot F OPen with a 6.5 Mystic/ 260 improved. Did well (got plaques on the wall)l, enjoyed it very much and so miss the ballistics.

I changed to the F TR and 223/90's this season.
Jerry
Click to expand...

Jerry - I've just started to get the hang of this F/TR thing and really think a chap of your ability should go back to F - Open LOL ! :cheers:
 
The plan right now is to continue in F-TR with the .308. Honestly I enjoy using a Harris bipod, and not needing to take too many "accessories" to the line with me. But you have to admit, those 7mm guns are darn ###y,and from a tech point of view it's hard not to imagine shooting one at some point. Hopefully my new F-TR gun will as good as Bob's new one ;)
 
Jerry

I respectively disagree about the difference between the ski type bipod and the pedestal rest but we can agree to disagree. I have shot both and find no difference on the target. I also find that each have their own unique advantages though.

Alex.

After shooting the 300 in a match, the 223 does look appealing for the reduced recoil so I have to agree with you.

Mpwolf

My desire for the 308 was for ranges only out to 600 meters on the BC lower mainland because they shoot F-TR almost exclusively due to very few F-Open shooters coming to the matches. I would be shooting the 300 out to 900 meters for any matches eastward where F-Open class is more popular. It wasn't my idea to shoot the 308 out to 900 meters. All I wanted was a replacement for the 6mmBR so I could shoot in F-TR class there that used the same bullet, powder and primers as my 300 for convienent inventory of components.

Steve
 
Tomochan said:
Jerry - I've just started to get the hang of this F/TR thing and really think a chap of your ability should go back to F - Open LOL ! :cheers:
Click to expand...

2nd match, 3rd in a tight field. Not a bad start at all :)

But I am not the only one you will have to beat.

I think the Chupa clan is doing a great job and little Chupa is going to be kicking all of our A$$'s soon enough. Hope she keeps with the sport.

This sounds corny but TR's appeal is that it is pretty much a level field as far as ballistics go. Yes, swap this for that, hotrod the other like anything else but the ontarget difference is not all that great.

And the increased recoil is a neg to many.

Wind reading is by far the most important thing AND that is what interests me now (been through the wildcats, piles of dies, funky looking cases and cooked barrels).

This started a few seasons back when I watched TR shooters shoot some amazing scores in winds I had a hard time steering my 6.5 in. My scores were up there in part because of ballistics. Made life so much easier but....

Now I get tossed around like a wet rag, dump a 4 and cheer. It's all good fun and has forced me to up my game on wind reading.

If I ever shoot OPen again, this new learnt skill WILL do me well.

And for me, competition shooting is now less about the GUN and more about the SHOOTER.

The tech for me is now in the support systems like my new POD.

SteveB, yep, we will share different opinions on this for sure. I know I have launched shots wrong due to shooting form and follow through using a pod. That has cost me points but like any learnt skill, I am getting so much better.

That almost never happened when I had the pedestal rest and my Open set up.

Fatigue, even the bottled induced kind, wouldn't be as destructive using the Open set up vs the pod.

Like the ballistics, an Open pedestal rest, proper rear bag and stock make shooting so much more forgiving.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
Funny, no one has mentioned range templates or other restrictions for nonstandard cartridges. If you shoot on a military range, be prepared to dance the dance stated in the range safety orders. If it is not 5.56 or 7.62, expect to be challenged.
 
Choose one,the other or both,just get out to the practices and matches and shoot.
Every time you pull a trigger you should be learning something to improve your skills.
I personally recommend newer members to this game to start off in FTR for a variety of reasons with the caveat that they can always move into FO anytime they feel like it. Still ,a year or two of range time on an FTR rig is experience not lost but very beneficial getting into the Open end.
Bottom line though, is whatever you personally enjoy ,you'll tend to do more of and often.
RNR
Gord
 
I just don't understand why you'd pay extra money to eliminate excuses for a pooched shot.

Chuck one into the wind in FTR? You can always hide behind the .308 ballistics.

Crush the course in Open? Well of course you did with that doomsday machine of you built. How couldn't you with that kind of BC and front rest? Heck, even your fancy gun case shaves .25MOA off.

;)
 
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