F T/R Opinions .223 or .308

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591JRS

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Would like to get into this sport. I have done a lot of research and continuing to do more.

Question is .223 or .308 up to 1000 yards. Pros and Cons.

I plan to start out with factory ammo for the first year also. Savage makes some good looking traget rifles for this discipline and offer a 1 in 7 twist in a .223 for larger grain bullets. I have been keeping my eye on the EE forums also for equipment.

Any insight with real world experiences would be appreciated. Thanks
 
Go with .308, no great mystery to making it shoot well.

Lots have been having trouble making the 90gr .223 bullets shoot consistently well.

1:11 twist 308 will shoot everything from 155 up to the 200+ heavies.
 
223 is cheaper and easier to shoot long strings with and is very competitive again 308.
308 tends to drift less in windy conditions at 1000 yards.

Best answer, they're both good. But 223 is cheaper to shoot, and learning how to read the wind is more beneficial. If you can figure out how the wind is going act and how your rifle acts, then caliber choice is non relevant since you can predict the path using some math.
 
I shoot 223 cause my shoulder will not tolerate a 308.

With the given bullets, this chambering is still being developed but very good results are being posted in Canada and around the world. A few big matches have been won with the 223.

Given the percentage vs the 308's, this is impressive results.

I campaigned the 223 last season and even with a steep development curve, did well enough to put me on the podium a few times.

But there is more work needed to confirm suitable powders and loads. We have only seen serious development with the 223/90 these last few yrs - whenever the US rules allowed any bullet weight.

With over 60yrs of development, there are no more secrets with the 308. So if you want plug and play, get the 308

Costs more, recoils more, straightforward to set up.

I have spent most of my match time 600m and in. The 223 and the 308 are comparable.

Shooters out east have done very well at Connaught out to 900m.

I will be competing this year out to 1000yds. In no means the worlds best wind reader, so my results are neither good nor bad. All I want is to see predictable and reliable results.

If the bullet goes where I expect when I expect it, it is a competitive set up that is limited by my ability to drive it.

New powders are coming out that will favor the burn rate needed in the 223 so on paper, the ballistics of the 223 can actually exceed the 308.

The key is making real world results mimic the charts.

Time will tell...

Jerry
 
591JRS I'm taking up F T/R shooting at our gun club this summer. I choose the 223 over the 308. Simply because it's cheaper to shoot. And if by some miracle I can judge the wind enough to hit target when needed I'll be looking in to a 308.
Rifle i'm using is the Savage Model 12 LRPV Left Port
Best of luck with which ever one you pick
 
I'm pretty confident that a .223 can do the job, but I'm not confident in my attention to detail on the loading bench to be sure that my ammo would be up to the task. The smaller the case capacity, the small your margin of error need to be. Food for thought, especially for the beginner.
 
I had the same debate last year and opted to go with a .308 for several of the reasons listed above: easier to get to shoot, and less demanding for someone new to reloading. I found the recoil to be managable, but I was certainly aware of it. Good luck either way!

Scott
 
308 better in the wind, put a muzzel break on it and say goodbye to recoil. I shoot Savage 10 fcp-k with muzzel break all day 50- 150 rounds and have no issues with the recoil. 223 flat shooter for sure but doesnt handle the wind as well. Good luck on your search.
 
savage.3006 said:
308 better in the wind, put a muzzel break on it and say goodbye to recoil. I shoot Savage 10 fcp-k with muzzel break all day 50- 150 rounds and have no issues with the recoil. 223 flat shooter for sure but doesnt handle the wind as well. Good luck on your search.
Click to expand...

Try running a ballistic program with 80 gr .223 against 155 gr .308 you will find the .223 just a little better in the wind. Also try running 90 gr .223 against 175 gr .308.

.223 with 80 gr bullets and .308 with 155 gr bullets have the same come ups (within a MOA) from 300 yards to 1000.

Muzzle brakes are not allowed in most competitions.
 
savage.3006 said:
308 better in the wind, put a muzzel break on it and say goodbye to recoil. I shoot Savage 10 fcp-k with muzzel break all day 50- 150 rounds and have no issues with the recoil. 223 flat shooter for sure but doesnt handle the wind as well. Good luck on your search.
Click to expand...

Muzzle breaks are not allowed in F-class competition IIRC. As for 223 handling wind, check out Mystic Precision's post on 223 and 90 bullets.

I'm not sure what the right answer is. I sold my 308 to get a 223 for cost reasons. It is a heck of a lot nicer to shoot recoil wise. Not sure if I am going to do much F-class this season though so I'm not the best gauge.

I don't think either choice is really wrong.
 
maynard said:
Try running a ballistic program with 80 gr .223 against 155 gr .308 you will find the .223 just a little better in the wind. Also try running 90 gr .223 against 175 gr .308.

.223 with 80 gr bullets and .308 with 155 gr bullets have the same come ups (within a MOA) from 300 yards to 1000.

Muzzle brakes are not allowed in most competitions.
Click to expand...

Just a little precision; here quickload/target result when you compare Berger 185 BTLR (what i use) to 90VLD, both near maximum;

10mph wind 90deg

185BTLR : 6.8 MOA
90VLD 8.2 MOA

It could make a difference between winning and losing.

KENNY
 
JBM with litz bullet G values where available.

1000yds standard conditions

Berger 30cal 155.5gr BT 2950fps 8.9MOA - still super popular.
Berger 30cal 210gr VLD 2600fps 7.1MOA - may not be an easy speed to hold
Berger 30cal 185gr BT 2700fps 7.8MOA
Berger 22cal 90gr VLD 2800fps 7.6MOA
Berger 22cal 90gr BT 2800fps 8.4MOA

You can play around with a program and show anything you want. The key is what is possible on target and what is accurate.

There are 223's that go faster and slower. As there are 308's.

Ultimately, on paper, the difference between these two is almost zip. The issue with mass vs wind will have to be debated this season at matches around the world but there is certainly a growing number of shooters choosing the 223 and winning.

Jerry
 
ORANGEKENNY said:
Just a little precision; here quickload/target result when you compare Berger 185 BTLR (what i use) to 90VLD, both near maximum;

10mph wind 90deg

185BTLR : 6.8 MOA
90VLD 8.2 MOA

It could make a difference between winning and losing.

KENNY
Click to expand...

Hi Kenny,
I have to disagree just a little. The shooter that reads the wind the best will win regardless of the bullet used.
 
maynard said:
Hi Kenny,
I have to disagree just a little. The shooter that reads the wind the best will win regardless of the bullet used.
Click to expand...

Shooter skill have better leverage than bullet choice, YES

I respect all opinions, i have a saying: Everybody's is right, there's no lies, all truth...

I don't consider myself the best shooter ever, but i saw some 155's and some 90VLD'S having twice my elevation (not only due to reload) and bottom line i won.

After a week of shooting at the CFRC, there was only few points separating F/O and F/F leader (like 35/1000), both leader were good shooter but ballistic won, right??

You can find the same difference between 185 or 210 user and 223 user. When a 223 win, it's because the shooter shot definitely better.

Kenny
 
Mystic Precision said:
Ultimately, on paper, the difference between these two is almost zip. The issue with mass vs wind will have to be debated this season at matches around the world but there is certainly a growing number of shooters choosing the 223 and winning.
Click to expand...

I'd be curious to know whether they are choosing .223 simply for the reduced recoil, and are succeeding despite of the bullet, or whether the 80 & 90 VLDs are viewed to be that good ballistically and that's the reason for the switch.

Certainly the 90VLD is not easy to get to shoot (as evidenced by the 450+ posts in that thread over the last 2.5 years), and most that I'm aware of aren't driving them nearly as fast as Jerry. It'll be interesting to see how the ballistically superior (at least from the G7s) .308 heavy hybrids fare this year; rumour is that they're not nearly as fussy as the VLDs, but I guess we'll see!
 
Can't say the 90gr VLD is hard to set up. With no data a few years back, it takes a while for shooters to figure out what works.

Now, there are receipes that work and you just have to tune accordingly. But that is not to say development will not continue for years more. The 308 is how old and the work never stops.

Good or bad? I know that one of our best TR shooters has now switched from decades of 308 shooting to the 223 and 90gr VLD's. He seemed pretty happy the last time I watched him clean up on a relay.

The 223 is not some magic potion. It is merely a cartridge that goes bang and sends a bullet downrange. you still need to drive it and it still needs to be tuned.

The excitement is simply the ability to be competitive with less recoil and costs.

That opens up a huge window for getting more shooters into the sport.

All the prep that I would do with any cartridge, I do with the 223. The big difference is the quality of scale needed to get rid of charge weight error - but then the same practise would be good for all forms of precision shooting.

Otherwise, there is nothing unique or mysterious about the case.

There are a growing number of shooters trying this out globally. Without the collective experiences of many shooters over many matches over many conditions, saying one things is good or not is merely anecdotal.

For me, I have sent alot of 90's downrange and have some receipes that I feel will work. They do at 500m and limited shooting at 1000yds shows promise.

2012 will be the 2nd full season with me and the 223/90 and the first where I am not developing at the same time. Will try to have all my matches 800m or further.

This fall will be a good time to assess how this combo works for me.

Jerry
 
For this year, no. My goals are the Westerns, a match at Homestead and Raton.

maybe squeak in a Portland or Spokane but I just don't see alot of spare time in my future.

I even dont know if Kamloops or Chilliwack are in the cards. Kamloops if they get out to 800m. Prince George is supposed to have their range up this spring (1000yds?)

The main goal is the worlds in 2013 in Raton. From there Connaught will be on the radar and I am sure I will make it out in preps for the 2017 Worlds.

That's the plan anyways.

Jerry
 
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