F/TR question caliber ?

T

TrxR

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I am going to get started in shooting some local provincial F/TR and have been thinking about going with a .223 and shooting 90's. I have recently been debating going .308 but was wondering about the price difference between the two . How much difference is there in price per 100 rounds between the two. Whats the common weight bullet for the .308 and how much powder is generally run in the .223 compared to the .308?

My main reasoning for the .223 was less recoil and cost for a beginner and the fact that here in New Brunswick I could do load development in the country as long as I have a Coyote license instead of having to travel to the range all the time.

What do you all think of this ?

Thanks
 
Great Idea TRX you will like 223 make sure yoiu get a 1/7 twist barrel with long throat fo 90gr, any good smith can lenghten throat
Bullets app;$20 per 100 less
25gr powder vs 47gr in 308
Biggest plus is much less recoil
manitou
 
There is a massive thread somewhere in this forum with my experiences with the 223/90 over the last few years. For moderate range F TR, it is an excellent choice. For LR especially in big winds, the 308 heavies are dominating.

Just depends on how you want to use it. Can help with all the gear and set up.

Jerry
 
I would read this article and carefully consider his points before looking at .223 for FTR
http://riflemansjournal.########.ca/2012/03/cartridges-223-for-palma-competition.html
 
The elevation issues with the 223 can be resolved and off the shelf components allow for very flat shooting ammo. Mechanical accuracy of the 223 is excellent and every it as good as the 308. Arguably, more shooters will be able to extract that accuracy from the 223 due to much lower recoil levels.

It is INERTIA that is the 223's archilles heel. From 800 to 1000yds in bumpy air, the lighter 90gr bullet gets pushed around by these gusts far more then a 185 to 215 gr bullet. Nothing to do with BC and everything to do with MASS.

At shorter distances, the movement is far less pronounced allowing the 223/90 to be competitive with the 308/heavies.

So for far reduced costs, lower recoil and competitive accuracy out to moderate distances, the 223/90 will continue to be used by a wide range of FTR shooters.

For LR FTR, the 223/90 becomes an excellent training tool because it will highlight changes in the air far more then the 308/Heavy. A shooter can learn to be more aware of subtleties in conditions cause he will see it on target.

Gun control also becomes less of an influence (although that should be practised of course) so more focus can be made on condition reading.
Jerry

PS the above points also apply to the 6BR vs the bigger boomers in F Open
 
TrxR, I believe this will be your first target rifle?

I would not unconditionally recommend someone shoot .223/80s as their first rifle, until several questions are answered in the affirmative (e.g. is the person a reasonably experienced handloader already, or is he willing to be pretty scrupulous and attentive)?

I would be *very* reluctant to suggest that someone choose .223/90s as their first rifle. Some people have gotten the 90s to shoot accurately; if you do, they will clearly and definitively outperform a .308/155, at all ranges. *But*, there are also a number of fairly experienced shooters who have tried to get the 90s running, and have had poor or middling results.

Because of the promise and potential of the .223/90s (low recoil, *very* high performance F/TR chambering), it is an attractive project for an already-established shooter who is already shooting another good rifle - if the .223/90 doesn't work out, he might be out of some time and money, but he is not out of shooting for a season.

If your *only* good target rifle was your .223, and it turned out that it did not shoot the 90s well, it would be a real shame to start your first year on the range struggling with that.

Without preconditions, I would suggest you use a .308.

If you are a good handloader with a willingness to make really good ammo, a .223 shooting 80/80.5/82 gr bullets (you'll need a 1-8.5" or quicker twist) would be a reasonable choice too (and you list some good advantages of going with a .223).

If you're adventurous and pig-headed, you could build a .223 set up to be able to use 90s, and also 80s. During the winter you could do testing with both, and when shooting season comes you could shoot the 90s if they work well, otherwise shoot the 80s. Unless you would enjoy a twice-as-big load development project, you might see this as wasteful.
 
TrxR check out our fullbore shooting schedule at rnbrafullbore.########.ca. Give me a holler if you want to burn some powder and try out a 308 some weekend. I've even got an Mpod and a Sightron for it that I use when I'm too tired to keep it up by hand lol. Looking forward to seeing you on the range.
 
We are putting together what should be a nice .223, Krieger. XR100, to loan to new TR shooters which should shoot Lapua 77 and other 80 grain bullets. Some very new shooters are recoil shy is the reason and it's a lttle less expensive to reload for, otherwise it would be .308 Win.

Regards from NS.
 
Daniel: I will more than likely take him up on his offer sometime in the future. Ive also got a Ron Mason willing to take me out with his .223's

I am still debating the .308

Thanks
 
I am certainly not as experienced as some whose advice has already been given but I second the advice to start with a .308 I have a .223 which I love but I do find loading for the .308 to be easier in that it is easier to devolp and load a consistent 1/2 moa performer in .308 than it is in .223. Note the use of the word consistent as, in my view, that's what it is all about.
 
Its not so much that its easier to find a load for the 308, its just that a .1 swing in a 308 isn't as big a deal in the larger case of the .308.
 
TR and f-class (FTR) are supposed to be 800-900-and 1000 yard shoots. Some places just don't have ranges that go that far, or some people won't take the sport so serious that they need to try. When you meet the people that actually shoot these competitions seriously and have been dabbling in the technical side of things for a very long time, you'd be silly not to listen to what that have to say when it comes to getting advice. If you want to speak with the undisputed authorities on 223/308 shooting, speak with a TR/Palma Shooter. They live and breathe the stuff. There are some exceptions, but the best shooters in the world including the world championship shooters that got together in Australia last year , were shooting 308 by a huge margin and the top shooters and top teams won with 308.
 
TrxR said:
Daniel: I will more than likely take him up on his offer sometime in the future. Ive also got a Ron Mason willing to take me out with his .223's
Click to expand...

Take advantage of being able to talk to Ron. He's a good shooter, a heckuva nice guy, and his .223 shoots really well (including at 900m). You'll know from talking to him what is involved in getting a .223 to shoot competitively, and be able to figure out if you're up for it or not.
 
PM Peter Dobson at Hirsch precision, he will talk you through your questions and help you out Great Guy !
IMO go with the 308 like Jerry said the 223 gets a little "bumpy" out at longer ranges.
 
If I was going to go .308 what twist rate and barrel length would you suggest? Also are most guys using 155's or are they using 185's or something else?

Thanks
 
With respect, I think Jerry is wrong. Light bullets (.223/90) don't get blown around more than heavier bullets (.308/155 or 185).... _all_ of "how much is a bullet blown around by wind" is incorporated into the "bc" parameter plus the muzzle velocity. Exactly that, and nothing more. If you use an accurate BC (and nowadays, thanks to Bryan Litz, we have *good* G7 BCs for the bullets that interest us, and they are all done on an apples-to-apples basis), then your ballistics program tells you the truth - this goes for vertical wind as well as sideways wind.

For shooting iron sights ("TR"), the rules say that we can use any weight bullet in .223, and any bullet <156 grains in .308.

For scoped shooting ("FTR"), the rules say that we can use any bullet weight in .223 and any bullet weight in .308.

If you do decide to build a .308, any barrel twist in the 1-11" to 1-13" range will do you fine. Get the best barrel you can find (Krieger, MacLennan, etc).

For iron sights, 30" barrels are usually chosen. Part of this is to get every last bit of speed, another part is simply to get the front sight a bit further out (it's easier to keep the front sight element and the target image in simultaneous focus that way).

For scopes, you can have a somewhat shorter barrel. 26" or shorter would be unusual for a 1000yd rifle, we tend to be speed hogs; the vast majority of FTR rifles have barrels in the 26"-30" range.

In scoped (FTR) shooting, the Berger 185LRBT is the "go-to standard". The recently-introduced Berger 185 Hybrid is probably fractionally better. There is also some cutting-edge work being done on shooting heavier bullets (210-230+), however that is not yet well established as a match-winning setup.

Having said that, a .308 shooting one of the modern high performance 155s (Berger 155 Hybrid, Berger 155.5 Fullbore, Sierra #2156 Palma) is *very* close in performance to a Berger 185 load. The top 155s are lower performance, but only barely (in the sense that you still might be able to win a national or international championship match with the 155s; but all other things being equal, the 185s do have a single-digit-percentage edge over the 155s).
 
If I read the Berger site right. If I went with a 1 in 11 say True flite heavy palma at 28 or 30 i would be safe shooting the 155's or 185's? or 185 hybrids?

Thanks
 
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