FA or Burst shooters... question from a 'Fudd'

[Silverado]

For those of you who have shot military rifles in FA or burst mode, I have a question.

I realize these modes are not shot for accuracy, but what kind of 'groups' can you shoot, or I suppose in FA, how many rounds stay in a man sized target before the recoil throws them off?

Or can you unload a whole magazine in the centre of mass? How 'bout for 3 round burst?

Just curious, having never laid hands on a fully automatic rifle...

 

[KevinB]

No one does it for any sort of group.

I've never used auto operationally.
For me - its more of a close to contact distance crowd control item.... Or suppression.

Unless your in real close your not going to put rounds onto people in auto.


Secondly your better off shooting semi auto rapid aimed rounds into a target.



MG's are different -- there ypu can walk burst onto tgt's and back and forth on larger tgt.s

 

[Cocked&Locked]

KevB's got it. unless they're end of the bed away, forget about keeping multiple rounds on target with rifle calibers. I haven't used on for real as Kev has, but playing on the range quickly shows you that in real life situations, you can't hold rifle calibers on target for more the 20 yards or so,

SMG's on the other hand but that's what they're for.....

 

[Amgoose]

best I ever did was 4 out of a 5 round burst at 25m with a C7A1 onto a Fig. 11

Fast repetition is where its at, as KevinB said.

 

[Strangeday]

We used FA as supression in the dense jungle areas, most of the "enemy" had SMGs, so we used distance as defensive tool. The fence line was broken three times, then the americans used burst, while the myself and the four british guys used semi. Alot of the "combat" techniques are owed to the the ideaology of the operators country of origin...IMHO

 

[SDC]

With just about any rifle-calibre round, I doubt you'd be able to keep more than 2-3 rounds on a man-sized target in a single burst (I'm thinking here of something like a 5.56 C7 or C8; with a 7.62 or 30-06, you'd have ONE hit before it went off target.) Most SMGs are fairly easy to control, as are most LMGs and GPMGs.

 

[KevinB]

We had circa 91-92 some Brit 22 guys explain that a longer burst can be brought back on tgt -- we tried it with the C7's and sure enough it was possible -- but its usually not worth wasting that many rounds to get back on tgt.
After 8-10 round you typically can bring it back to "around" the tgt area.


Nothing in a non belt fed will be aimed semi-auto fire.
(or aimed bolt or pump fire for that matter either.)

 

[Silverado]

Sorry fellas... SMG/LMG/GPMG = ?????????

As for the rest, that's kinda what I thought, but have zero experience. I've only fired an AR15 once, and that was about 16 years ago. Lately I have a craving for one though... and yes, I know the one I buy will be semi only. Too bad 'bout that...

 

[CanAm]

SMG - Submachinegun
LMG - Light machinegun
GPMG - General Purpose machinehun

 

[CanAm]

I've only fired an AR15 once, and that was about 16 years ago. Lately I have a craving for one though... and yes, I know the one I buy will be semi only. Too bad 'bout that...

Once you go black, you never go back!

 

[Splatter]

All the rifle calibre FA shooting I remember doing was at 200m or longer range.
A BREN gun in good repair would keep 3-to-4 shot bursts in a 4" group at 200m, using the iron sights, of course, until the barrel got too hot to touch, then the groups grew a little, maybe 6" (that's one nice thing about the quich-change barrel).
The FN-C2A1 produced (for me) very linear groups from the prone position, the first shot going to POA, the next round impacting 10"-12" away at a 45° angle (I'm right handed, so the line extended up and to the right), the third round continued up and out another 10"-12". Any succeeding rounds just hit the berm. If I could use my C2 from a standing supported position (IE in a trench, the groups were much better owing to the ability to absorb the recoil in a better manner, at 200m, clusters in the 10"-14" were pretty much the norm.

The FN-C1A1 with a C2 trigger group was a lot of fun but at 200m it was all one could do to keep all of the shots on a 4" target, if shot from the standing-unsuppoted position, which was all we ever tried, because had we been caught, I've no doubt we'd have been in some trouble.

The belt fed M1919, in both original .30 cal and 7.62 NATO would sort of triangular groups with the base quite flat and about 6" wide and the group would be about 10" tall; but only about 2"-3" wide at the top. The sights are quite crude and of a very short radius, 30-40cm IIRC. This was with 5-8 round bursts, on the tripod. Firing from the hip with a sling over one's shoulder seemed quite accurate. it was easy to keep even quite long busts centred on quite small targets; but you also have to remeber that it was a 35 pound gun (IIRC).

The C1 SMG was capable of firing long bursts into 10" clusters at 25m. With short bursts (2-3 rounds) fried from the shoulder, using the sights, 4" groups were often obtained.

The only STEN gun I ever fired was a Mk2-S, with the suppressor. It was quite heavy, about 8 or 9lbs as I recall, and recoiled very little. It had a newish barrel. I shot some 4" groups at 50 yards with it, although the sights were crude the radius was reasonably long ( nearly 3 feet I think).

I got to try and UZI and although I didn't shoot any paper with it, my impression was that at 25m you'd be looking at groups in the range of 24".

 

[pm]

Fa

Some pics of an instructor writing his initial on FA with 2 X 30rd mags. Last two rd from 2nd mag fired from FA as singles to make the periods.

does the same drill with the M4 though cyclic rate is a bit faster.

 

[Splatter]

Lokks like this is done at a range of what, 2m ?

 

[pm]

Pretty much...

 

[Slavex]

what's the acceptable "beaten zone" for machine guns (all types I guess). I thought that was something that was used for testing their barrels or something? or was I drunk and made that up?

 

[Slavex]

hey that's Phil Singleton in those pics. like only the top MP5 instructor in the whole world.

 

[mebiuspower]

Some pics of an instructor writing his initial on FA with 2 X 30rd mags. Last two rd from 2nd mag fired from FA as singles to make the periods.

does the same drill with the M4 though cyclic rate is a bit faster.

He's so close... why didn't he use a pen?

 

[TheIndifferent1]

He's so close... why didn't he use a pen?

Because the pen is mightier than the sword, but not the MP5

 

[koalorka]

That's why the HK G11 was such an innovative design because it could produce a burst of 3 rounds within 1 recoil impulse, optimizing accuracy in FA mode.

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

beaten zone

what's the acceptable "beaten zone" for machine guns (all types I guess). I thought that was something that was used for testing their barrels or something? or was I drunk and made that up?

The beaten zone is the area where the bullets land. When you are watering your lawn with a hose, where the water lands is the beaten zone. I don't think it has anything to do with testing.

It is terminology from when machine guns were/are used as an area denial weapon. With the gun locked on fixed lines of fire, the bullets will cause casualties to whoever is in the beaten zone. WWI gunners used this to keep reinforcements from infiltrating to front line trenches from the rear. The Maxim and Vickers guns were well equiped. The Sustained Fire kit for the modern FN MAG (aka C6) is the modern equivalent.

An old gentleman I knew at the matches in Connaught (Mr. Lewis Cooperman from upstate NY), told a story about taking several of the washers out of the buffer on his platoon's M1917 watercooled MGs which slowed their rate of fire from several hundred rpm to maybe one hundred. When the triggers were tied to fire with string, the guns would chug through a belt of ammunition per minute, and his platoon were able to dominate a particular narrow feature of terrain against the Japanese.