FA or Burst shooters... question from a 'Fudd'

SMG controllability

I read a book by a US Green Beret Medal of Honor winner. He wrote about training his men to shoot full auto. Fire where the enemy is running, not at him. Let the enemy's fear propel him into the stream of bullets. Like leading ducks with a shotgun, there is no sense shooting AT the enemy. With Shorty M16s and their suppressor/compensators, I suppose it was an easy piece of shooting.
 
As a sailor, I don't have a huge amount of FA experience, so the heavyweights have already spoken, and I'll just toss in my .02 (less than that after taxes)

Having tried the occasional 30 round "dump" from a C-7A1 at 100m, it was observed that the first round would hit, the next 5-8 would go high-right, and the greater portion of the burst would be contained within about a 6' height by 10 foot width area. (Based on subsequant examination of splash, and noted splash when firing.)

YMMV, but FA is for the most part, a waste of ammo with a rifle, and should be saved for LMG/MG's.

That said, it's also a good bunch of fun.

NS
 
The only STEN gun I ever fired was a Mk2-S, with the suppressor. It was quite heavy, about 8 or 9lbs as I recall, and recoiled very little. It had a newish barrel. I shot some 4" groups at 50 yards with it, although the sights were crude the radius was reasonably long ( nearly 3 feet I think).
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The suppressed Sten has its sights in exactly the same place as the regular Sten because the suppressor tube can be unscrewed from the receiver and having the sights on the tube would be endlessly frustrating wrt zero wandering.

IF the SMG you shot had sights out on the tube then it was likely a Sterling like this.
arm642.jpg


Here is a pic of a Sten MK2S and the front sight can clearly be seen.
arm525.jpg


As to the efficacy of FA fire, it is highly dependant on how you do it. Sure holding down the trigger for long bursts will result in a lot of missed rounds. But if you can learn to do short controlled bursts rapidly then FA can be quite devastating.

The biggest problem with FA fire is few people, even in the military get to train at it enough to be proficient. During my service we only trained with "burst fire" a few times during my entire tour.
 
Done in bursts of 2-3 rounds FA fire is fairly accurate out to 50 or so meters with a rifle or SMG. I can keep 28 of 30 rounds in the A zone of an IPSC target on FA firing in bursts out to 25m with a C8,beyond that I wouldn't bother.
Operationally I never used FA fire, controlled pairs and failure drills are the norm.
 
Glenfilthie said:
'Fudd'.

Anybody calls me that on the range...dies.
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I'm sure you've never actually killed anyone on the range...

That being said, I discovered this term during the recent Zumbo controversy, and threw it in here for a joke.

There is a saying... If the shoe fits...
 
With a little practise you can dump all 30 rounds from an MP5 into the 10 ring of a B27 at 10m in one squeeze.Singleton stance helps very much.I noted the similarities between the Singleton and the new army Gunfighter stance.Looks like someone did a little research.
 
Longshot said:
With a little practise you can dump all 30 rounds from an MP5 into the 10 ring of a B27 at 10m in one squeeze.Singleton stance helps very much.I noted the similarities between the Singleton and the new army Gunfighter stance.Looks like someone did a little research.
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The stance has been around for years it's just now being formally taught to the troops, what works,works. Hell 10-15yrs yrs ago the chicken wing was all the rage,but then common sense took over.:)
 
Longshot said:
With a little practise you can dump all 30 rounds from an MP5 into the 10 ring of a B27 at 10m in one squeeze.Singleton stance helps very much.I noted the similarities between the Singleton and the new army Gunfighter stance.Looks like someone did a little research.
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Rented a MP5 last time I was in the states, after a couple of mags to aclimatize, (5-6) I was able to do mag dumps and keep everything on the torso of one of those full size police targets. My friend who lives down there and spends to much money at the same range, could hold a 8" grouping with a 30 round mag in one long burst......gotta love smgs...:D
 
Cocked&Locked said:
Rented a MP5 last time I was in the states, after a couple of mags to aclimatize, (5-6) I was able to do mag dumps and keep everything on the torso of one of those full size police targets. My friend who lives down there and spends to much money at the same range, could hold a 8" grouping with a 30 round mag in one long burst......gotta love smgs...:D
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Is there somewhere close enough to drive where you can rent MP5's? :evil:
 
cantom said:
Is there somewhere close enough to drive where you can rent MP5's? :evil:
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If you're in the GTA, drive out to Detroit, great for an overnight stay, they have a couple F/A mp5s (one has both a collapsible stock, and silencer, what is that, MP5SD4?) Quite pricey though, around $75 for half an hour, plus ammo... going back there in a couple months.

Cheers,
Alex
 
Like the other greenies said...

You fire full auto in controlled bursts of 2-5 (yeah, you can control the number with practice) at dstances of 25m or less, beyond that you use repetition. Even for cover and suppression fire (but if you need to use a C-7 for sup frie, I have to ask what happened to the C-6 and the C-9s).
 
cantom said:
Is there somewhere close enough to drive where you can rent MP5's? :evil:
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Elkheart Indianna, I'll get the name of the store. The have a freakin' BBINDER of information sheets on the different weapons (FA) you can rent, starting with a sten and going up to a M249. The day I was there we ran a goodly pile of ammo through a MP5, a Berretta M12, and a Thompson......life is very good somedays. (the next day I was at Knob Creek for the shoot, some days life only gets better!!:rockOn: )
 
3-4 rnd bursts if possible, higher the caliber the harder control is. Best grouping I ever had on Auto was with the Sterling,you could control the 9mm rounds better but it did still walk on you. Full auto in my opinion is a waste of valuable ammo in most circumstances. Don't get me wrong, sometimes full auto is needed. Controlled, aimed shots work the best. Dbl tap
 
Used a SMG on a beach range in the Br Army. Targets popped up at about five yards. My groups non-existant as were any holes in the targets.
Phase training and old C-7: automatic fire at 50m I beleive and then 25. It was far better with this rifle and rounds actually hit on paper. The spread was wide though and not all rounds hit.
 
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