Factory Vs. Reloads for Personal Defense

safeguardguy said:
Ahhh! now we enter the mysterious world of ballistics.:runaway:

Seriously though, I have seen 9 bounce off windsheild and shot a dog through with a double tap and he ran around angry for quite a while.:confused: I think that is why God invented the 45 acp.:p :p :p OK, Browning invented it and I admit I am a 45 fanatic. There are so many factors to consider. I really do stay with 40 or 45 for carry. When you enter the world of terminal ballistics there seems to be a recurring theme that the larger the wound channel diameter, the higher the completion rate. But then you have the anomaly of shot placement. For example a Los Angeles police officer shot 5 times with a 357 magnum revolver and chased the assailant over a block and took him down.:eek: One of the largest grizzly taken down in Alaska was with a 22 through the eye. Wow! THe nine mil is an impressive calibre for its size but really the smallest calibre I would even consider for personal protection. In agreeance with Violator; Street proof suggests the 9 may not be a good choice.
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And there have been cases where .45 glances of a skull and doesn't penetrate, it's all anecdotal and you can find stories for whatever calibre you choose. Pretty hard to argue with the success of .40 S&W though, good calibre. 9 with a good modern hollow point though, like the +P+ hydroshok or gold dot, I'd take over any but the 185 hydroshok in 45, or 125 gr in 357. Really any of them are gonna take you down hard if you put them into the boiler room, and peripheral hits with any are chancey, doesn't matter what calibre goes through the bicep, your target is still hostile. The problem with wound channel balistics is that it is hard to allow for the effect of hydrostatics on your target, only the crush cavity. The reason rifle calibers hit harder is the hydrostatic shock brought on by velocity, and only a few handgun calibers can give you a reliable hydrostatic effect and still recoil light enough for serious defensive use, say .357 sig, .357 mag, 9mm +P+, and
.40 with 135-150 grns. I'd carry .45 and be happy with it, (whats not to like, I have several) but for an everyday carry piece that must be concealed I'd more likely go to a nine for the saving in size and weight. It's no good if you leave it at home in the summer because you can't hide it or its uncomfortable.
 
I trust my reloads as much or even more than I trusty factory ammo…but I think that it would burry you in court;

I remember watching this show about a real SD case in Arizona, where a 57 year old shot a guy claiming it was self defence, he carried 10mm loaded with hollow points (it happened in a wilderness) and the prosecution made a HUGE deal the he used a gun more powerful than what cops carry, and that he used those evil hollow points. :rolleyes: He was sentenced to 10 years… and this was in the US I couldn’t believe it.

Now imagine he used reloads? :eek:


EDIT: oh yeah, 9mm rocks! :cool:
 
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I turst my reloads too but don't carry them.

357 sig and 10mm are amazing cartridges. I don't know why they didn't just take the world by storm. Looks like the 40 is making it though. The 45 will never die. The 9mm is the poor mans dream (not an insult - I am a poor man.)
 
safeguardguy said:
I turst my reloads too but don't carry them.

357 sig and 10mm are amazing cartridges. I don't know why they didn't just take the world by storm. Looks like the 40 is making it though. The 45 will never die. The 9mm is the poor mans dream (not an insult - I am a poor man.)
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I trust my loads fine, but I've seen way more issues with reloads on the range then I ever have with factory.....

The 10 didn't make it because it's only good for those who want to pile much time and effort into learning to shoot it well. For the average cop or joe, who shoot when they have to for qualification or to relax, it's too much of a good thing. At something like twice the muzzle energy of a 45, and a smaller hole to boot, its a garunteed shoot through and then where does the bullet go? Anything that exits your target (ie the bad guy) is 1) a liability and 2) wasted energy. In a perfect world every bullet would stop just under the skin of his opposite side, but we don't live there and I want something that most of the time is gonna stay where I shoot it. The 45 will never die, its a legend and americans don't like anything metric :D
 
I'll give you the .40 cal,but 9mm Blows Dog, too many incidents of goblins not going down, the 40 doesn't have that problem. That high velocity 9mm round tends to burn up its energy upon first impact, the 40 and 45 keep going, basically from bullet weight. Les
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sigh and here we go again. 9mm has proven to be just as good at stopping people as .40 and .45 ACP. so long as you are using modern defence rounds none of those calibers is going to let you down. It's not the bullet size, but shot placement and number of hits that actually counts. COS shots, vitals etc, are what kill people. People have walked away from rifle shots, shotgun shots, landmines, etc etc etc. And people have walked away from multiple .40, .45 and 9mm too. There is no empirical evidence to suggest that good ammo in any of the standard pistol calibers is going to out perform any other other caliber.
 
IM_Lugger said:
I remember watching this show about a real SD case in Arizona, where a 57 year old shot a guy claiming it was self defence, he carried 10mm loaded with hollow points (it happened in a wilderness) and the prosecution made a HUGE deal the he used a gun more powerful than what cops carry, and that he used those evil hollow points. :rolleyes: He was sentenced to 10 years… and this was in the US I couldn’t believe it.

Now imagine he used reloads? :eek:
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I don't see your point. I have asked for someone to demonstate at least one case where a conviction resulted BECAUSE someone used handloads. In your example, if the fellow had used handloads do you think he would have been doubly convicted?
I am sure that the prosecutors will use anything at their disposal to vilify a shooter. Caliber, type of ammunition, number of shots, and their placement etc.
However, if you are going to use lethal force you should be expecting the legal s#$tstorm. Worrying about your ammo selection is the least of your worries. Was your life in danger, and did you act appropriately under the law?
 
I didn't even see your post... but my point was that if just using HP will get you in that much trouble reloads would be much worse.
 
IM_Lugger said:
I didn't even see your post... but my point was that if just using HP will get you in that much trouble reloads would be much worse.
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Why? Apparently it would have made no difference in your example. Based on your example the issue is not about reloads, but about using HP ammo. If the case is accurate as cited it would suggest that those in fear of being convicted after a justified shooting should use FMJ or WC ammo, and apparently there is more proof to support this, than to support the problems with reloaded ammo.
 
I have never shot 10mm, just bookread. If overpenetration was the issue, I can see why it didn't become popular. I understood it would perform like a 357+ with a certain HP bullet. Thanks for the info and the other ballistics info.

I am partial to the 45 for one other reason. I can use my silencer with it and there is no sonic crack. Brag Brag.
 
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Slavex said:
sigh and here we go again. 9mm has proven to be just as good at stopping people as .40 and .45 ACP. so long as you are using modern defence rounds none of those calibers is going to let you down. It's not the bullet size, but shot placement and number of hits that actually counts. COS shots, vitals etc, are what kill people. People have walked away from rifle shots, shotgun shots, landmines, etc etc etc. And people have walked away from multiple .40, .45 and 9mm too. There is no empirical evidence to suggest that good ammo in any of the standard pistol calibers is going to out perform any other other caliber.
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Don't take me as hostile because ballistics is a never ending discussion. I just wonder how in the winter, you shoot a 9mm and it hits layers of leather, denim, cotton, heavy winter coats, whatever. The HP clogs up and the energy is absorbed, then it finally hits flesh and stops in the rib of the assailant. I believe most testing that says; "They are all good" are ballistic gel tests. Which begs the question; how many naked criminal are you planning on shooting?
 
Don't take me as hostile because ballistics is a never ending discussion. I just wonder how in the winter, you shoot a 9mm and it hits layers of leather, denim, cotton, heavy winter coats, whatever. The HP clogs up and the energy is absorbed, then it finally hits flesh and stops in the rib of the assailant. I believe most testing that says; "They are all good" are ballistic gel tests. Which begs the question; how many naked criminal are you planning on shooting?
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Can't shoot someone outside in Canada, we are limited to protection of ones life inside the home .
The folks that picked reload to factory spec, how you gonna make a case, after the round is fired?.
The question will be , did you reload the ammunition? yes , but... thats all the questions I have :D
 
safeguardguy said:
I have never shot 10mm, just bookread. If overpenetration was the issue, I can see why it didn't become popular. I understood it would perform like a 357+ with a certain HP bullet. Thanks for the info and the other ballistics info.

I am partial to the 45 for one other reason. I can use my silencer with it and there is no sonic crack. Brag Brag.
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Now I must officially hate you, B@stard! Wish we could have nice toys. And yeah, for a supressor .45 is the cat's meow, much much better then 147 grn 9mm or down loaded 180 .40.

The 10mm at full bore substanially outperforms 357 from an energy standpoint, but most of it's bullets are more heavily constructed then the 125 hp's in 357 so they just keep on going. It's a better hunting round then a defensive one. If they went to a lighter bullet that would fragment like the 125, to limit penetration and incresae trauma, perhaps it would perform better, but like 44mag, it's way more then you need to knock down people.
 
safeguardguy said:
Don't take me as hostile because ballistics is a never ending discussion. I just wonder how in the winter, you shoot a 9mm and it hits layers of leather, denim, cotton, heavy winter coats, whatever. The HP clogs up and the energy is absorbed, then it finally hits flesh and stops in the rib of the assailant. I believe most testing that says; "They are all good" are ballistic gel tests. Which begs the question; how many naked criminal are you planning on shooting?
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Dude, if a 9mm plugs up, it's going right thru you, not losing penetration. The only winter coat that's gonna stop it is stuffed with kevlar or ceramic:D . You can plug up the hollow point and then it will not expand and over penetrate, but if you put it where it should be it will still do it's job. That being said, the latest hollow point designs are designed to be self clearing and expand well after clothing and/or barriers. Also the velocity needed for reliable expansion has been brought down as low as 700 fps in certian calibers so even .38 spl and 45 acp can be reliable expanders now. The departments using 185grn .45 hydroshoks are having great results.
 
Don't hate me. Just come down and borrow my suppressor. It is eerily quiet when you dip it in water before firing.

OK on the 10mm and thanks for the intel.
 
I'd see absolutely no reason in requiring reloads for personal defense. On the subject of factory duds, I've personally yet to have one. Considering you'll be using a pistol as self defense in very close range, pretty much anything you feed the gun (short of a blank) will stop the perp.

Why risk being held accountable on grounds of loading your own ammunition when it provides no advantage in the first place.
 
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