Factory Vs. Reloads for Personal Defense

[safeguardguy]

Dude, if a 9mm plugs up, it's going right thru you, not losing penetration. The only winter coat that's gonna stop it is stuffed with kevlar or ceramic . You can plug up the hollow point and then it will not expand and over penetrate, but if you put it where it should be it will still do it's job. That being said, the latest hollow point designs are designed to be self clearing and expand well after clothing and/or barriers. Also the velocity needed for reliable expansion has been brought down as low as 700 fps in certian calibers so even .38 spl and 45 acp can be reliable expanders now. The departments using 185grn .45 hydroshoks are having great results.

Doesn't velocity/mass change that? I see the 45 as a bunker buster. Joules of energy and mass is what makes it punch through with all blunt trauma staying in/affecting the body. The 9 is fast and really light so it loses its speed really quickly. Didn't know about the self clearing design aspect being reliable.

 

[bluesclues]

To the original question, I would use my hand loads. This may be contrary to popular opinion here but, I do have some reasons.

I know the charactaristics of my hand loads, I have been shooting this same load for a long time and have shot this load thousands of times under varying conditions. I also know the consistancy of accuracy from my hand loads. I know the felt recoil and, physical results on myself and my XD40 from my hand loads. These reasons coupled with that I know how many rounds, how fast and (reasonably, as stress levels will vary) how accurate I can expect from my ammo/ gun combo.

Not to mention, my hand loads are all I have in house most of the time. And, for me to set aside a mag or 2 with dedicated self defence ammo in them would really increase the cost factor. The "name brand defence ammo" can get expensive and the requisite training time with this ammo (read hundreds of rounds down range on fairly regular basis) to maintain proficiency. I know some will say that you can't put a cost on defending your self or loved ones. To this I would argue that more expensive does not always equal better {results} for every shooter.

I am not concerned about the "after thought" of a defensive firearms incounter at this time. I know others will shudder at this statement but, I will leave the knowledge of my guns and gear for the protection of my loved ones to me and the "legalese" to the lawyers.

Lastly, I currently shoot (more than any other right now) my XD40 but, would not feel "undergunned" with my hand loaded 9mm either.

Edit: I was reading recently that some cops are becoming "gun-shy" because the "serious legal concerns" for any actions where shooting was a legal and appropriate option. I tend to think that this not be my primary concern for self defence.

Opinions will vary and everyone is entitled to one. The above comments are worth exactly what you paid for them.

 

[safeguardguy]

Pretty reasonable. You're not trying to be an expert or over the top. You recognize that protecting your life and your loved ones is all that matters and leave the rest to the lawyers, etc.

 

[David K]

.... Does any "Hand loader" here, seriously claim, that they've spent even a fraction of the time and money developing and testing their "pet loads" that the larger Manufacturers have on their's ? There is also another side to the "issue" . Were a Factory Load fail to fire, one could possibly have a large company to sue for damages etc. As a hand loader, I can't get some of the better components IE The Hydra Shok bullets nor some the Ranger type projectiles. With a factory round, assuming a sensible choice, one is getting a known and proven commodity ! ..... David K.

 

[IM_Lugger]

The 10mm at full bore substanially outperforms 357 from an energy standpoint, but most of it's bullets are more heavily constructed then the 125 hp's in 357 so they just keep on going. It's a better hunting round then a defensive one. If they went to a lighter bullet that would fragment like the 125, to limit penetration and incresae trauma, perhaps it would perform better, but like 44mag, it's way more then you need to knock down people

The energy is about the same ~700ft-lbs (buffalo bore ammo) .357mag being a little more powerful than 10mm… Also most 10mm bullets are actually .40S&W bullets (esp. 180gr or less), since .40 is lot more popular...

Doesn't velocity/mass change that? I see the 45 as a bunker buster. Joules of energy and mass is what makes it punch through with all blunt trauma staying in/affecting the body. The 9 is fast and really light so it loses its speed really quickly. Didn't know about the self clearing design aspect being reliable

Yes and No; .45 faces a LOT more resistance due to the larger bullet diameter than 9mm. IIRC the ballistic coefficient of 9mm and .45 are about the same (115/9mm vs. 185/.45, 147/9mm vs. 230/45 etc) so since 9mm has higher velocities it usually penetrates better.

Why risk being held accountable on grounds of loading your own ammunition when it provides no advantage in the first place.

If you reload you can usually load ammo a bit hotter than your average factory stuff. Since I can get quality HP bullet I have no doubt I can make my ammo to be as effective if not more than factory ammo.

 

[bluesclues]

.... Does any "Hand loader" here, seriously claim, that they've spent even a fraction of the time and money developing and testing their "pet loads" that the larger Manufacturers have on their's ? There is also another side to the "issue" . Were a Factory Load fail to fire, one could possibly have a large company to sue for damages etc. As a hand loader, I can't get some of the better components IE The Hydra Shok bullets nor some the Ranger type projectiles. With a factory round, assuming a sensible choice, one is getting a known and proven commodity ! ..... David K.

David, I am not trying to compare my "hand loads" to any other manufactures products. But, you have to remember, I only have to work up ONE load for ONE gun for ONE shooter. Things to think about are that I have litterly shot thousands of rounds with ONE load, my "hand load". For me this is a deciding factor. Obviously, I am not a lawyer or a balistics scientist. This is just my (I believe to be educated) way of thinking.

Plus, just 'cause you mentioned it, sueing a major manufacturer for a load failing to fire is something that I would not want to even think about in a threat situation, that is if I lived through it.

It would seem that I only have myself to count on for self defense, why not my ammo that I already count on for competition, practice, training etc?

To each their own, and I sincerly hope that no one here ever has to find out which is better.

 

[Dragoon]

Doesn't velocity/mass change that? I see the 45 as a bunker buster. Joules of energy and mass is what makes it punch through with all blunt trauma staying in/affecting the body.

Yes, but of the two, velocity has more more of an effect in terms of kinetic energy.

The formula for kinetic energy is: KE = 1/2 Mass x Velocity Squared.

So, any change in mass has a linear effect on KE while any change in velocity has an exponential effect.

Momentum (what keeps an object moving) is simply mass x velocity. A change in either has only a linear effect.

 

[IM_Lugger]

Doubling the mass will double the KE, doubling the velocity will quadruple the KE.

Dragoon, that is ‘European formula’ and it only works is you’re using mass in grams (vs. grains) and velocity in m/s (vs. fps) also the energy you get would be in Joules (not Ft-lbs)

If you’re want to use fps, grains and get ft-lbs the formula is KE=Vell.^2 * Mass /450400

 

[Colin]

Read some of the articles in Combat Handgun about the legal issues after the shooting, you can be right and did the right thing but still pay a hefty price for your lawyer to prove, no sense giving the other side anything to hang their hat on.

 

[bluesclues]

Read some of the articles in Combat Handgun about the legal issues after the shooting, you can be right and did the right thing but still pay a hefty price for your lawyer to prove, no sense giving the other side anything to hang their hat on.

Colin, I read Combat Hanguns occasionally, it is a fine American publication, lots of great info. I would be more interested in some exclusively Canadian outcomes of use of firearms in home/ self defense situations. I don't have all the answers but, I do know that there are some legal differences in our 2 countries. All of that aside, my recomedation for others would be whatever you choose for your particular application, make sure you are intimately familiar with the firearm and ammunition that you choose.

I really do not see a "win-win" choice here. A crafty prosecuter will no doubt be able to "hang their hat on" titles such as "self defense ammunition", "tactical application police", "hollow point" and the list goes on and on. Are far as another argument goes for "hand loaded" ammo, I didn't make it specifically for shooting people, as some manufacturers advertising would suggest....

Like I have already mentioned above, basing your choice of ammunition selection on the "what ifs" after an incident may not be the wisest way of looking at it. Remembering, that neutralizing the threat with reliable and accurate shots is what it all boils down to. The rest, shall we say, is out of our hands.

Whatever it is you (anyone) chooses to dedicate as "the round of choice", buy a boat load of it and practice, practice, practice. Because, if the situation ever arises, the "best self defense ammunition" in the world will do you no good if you can't hit what you are aiming at.

There are alot of other things to consider here like: where do you live, who else in the dwelling, is there a way out of the dwelling, how much time do you have, where is the gun, do you have it on you, would your spouse or any other adult be a position to use your gun, what room are you in in proximaty to others in the dwelling etc etc etc?

Alot of good info here in this thread. I would be interested in if anyone has any specific legal documentation (Canadian ofcourse) as the the "best" informed decision with actual facts from court cases.

 

[Slavex]

well since 9mm is known for overpenetration in a lot of cases, I am not too concerned about it not going through someones clothing.
Hell why don't we go out and get some pigs and do a test at my club? live ones dead ones (probably have to dead ones to keep the PETA types away). we'll even dress them up (so long as some of you don't get too excited by that).
failing that lets just take some phone books, put clothes on them and see what happens. True the penetration into the phone books themselves won't mean much, but the getting through the clothing will.

 

[BEARMAN]

Why add one more possibility into the incident . Use Factory ammo of a type the police use.

 

[David K]

Factory vs Handloads

..... I readily concede that shot placement is logically, more important than shot design. That being said, if one had lots of functioning hand loads, one would expect that along the way a lot of practice took place with that privately developed hand load. If that were the case, then it may well be that there are advantages to using a "hand load" . It still begs the question, if the shot is not optimally placed, how well does it fair is "stopping" the threat ? In this instance, it's reasonable to assume that the documented uses and testing of the "factory round" would give a reasonably reliable indicator of the bullets performance. I would also suggest that given the millions and millions of factory rounds produced and used each year, the statistical odds of reliable ignition are better than those produced by the average hand loader. If the factory load fails to fire, then the chances of it being easily "cleared" are better than those of a hand load. With the factories strict quality control, liability concerns being a strong motivator, and a largely automated and proven production line, the advantage has to be with the factory stuff. To be prudent, it makes sense to produce your own practice rounds that closely match the chosen factory round, with lower cost, more practice becomes a reality, all adding to level of confidence and expectations of dependability. Guess, ultimately, it comes down to a matter of personal choice and comfort level. My personal vote has always been to rely on the well known and proven factory rounds ! ..... David K.

 

[Dragoon]

Dragoon, that is ‘European formula’ and it only works is you’re using mass in grams (vs. grains) and velocity in m/s (vs. fps) also the energy you get would be in Joules (not Ft-lbs)

If you’re want to use fps, grains and get ft-lbs the formula is KE=Vell.^2 * Mass /450400

I seem to recall that we've been through this before so try to pay attention this time.

KE = 1/2 Mass x Velocity Squared is the base formula; not the 'European Formula'. The units of measure are irrelevant in the base formula.

 

[bluesclues]

David K, What you say makes sense to me. I guess in the end, it comes down to what you or I feel most comfortable with, to get the job done.

Like I said before, I hope that neither of us, has to acutally find out in our own backyard, the answer to this question.

 

[IM_Lugger]

I seem to recall that we've been through this before so try to pay attention this time.

KE = 1/2 Mass x Velocity Squared is the base formula; not the 'European Formula'. The units of measure are irrelevant in the base formula.

OK than let’s try your 'base formula' for 9mm 124gr @ 1200fps (fyi the KE should be 396ft-lbs)

According to your formula the KE is 89,280,000 ft-lbs? (62 x 1440000) That's a LOT considering that .50BMG is 'only' about 7,000ft-lbs...


Might want to check out this Remington page (right column)

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/

 

[Cocked&Locked]

Don't hate me. Just come down and borrow my suppressor. It is eerily quiet when you dip it in water before firing.

OK on the 10mm and thanks for the intel.

How can you hate anyone who is willing to pay the tax stamp on a supressor.......and I'd love to sometime!

 

[Cocked&Locked]

well since 9mm is known for overpenetration in a lot of cases, I am not too concerned about it not going through someones clothing.
Hell why don't we go out and get some pigs and do a test at my club? live ones dead ones (probably have to dead ones to keep the PETA types away). we'll even dress them up (so long as some of you don't get too excited by that).
failing that lets just take some phone books, put clothes on them and see what happens. True the penetration into the phone books themselves won't mean much, but the getting through the clothing will.

.45 hardball overpenetrates most of the time as well.

Um, no lipstick on the pigs ok?

Phone books actually stop bullets better then 2X4!

 

[Cocked&Locked]

The energy is about the same ~700ft-lbs (buffalo bore ammo) .357mag being a little more powerful than 10mm… Also most 10mm bullets are actually .40S&W bullets (esp. 180gr or less), since .40 is lot more popular...

total energy, but the 357 bullet comes apart in about 9 inches of penetration unless the hollow point is blocked. The 10mm, esp with heavier bullets has a much higher sectional density and penetrates like no tommorw.

Yes and No; .45 faces a LOT more resistance due to the larger bullet diameter than 9mm. IIRC the ballistic coefficient of 9mm and .45 are about the same (115/9mm vs. 185/.45, 147/9mm vs. 230/45 etc) so since 9mm has higher velocities it usually penetrates better.



If you reload you can usually load ammo a bit hotter than your average factory stuff. Since I can get quality HP bullet I have no doubt I can make my ammo to be as effective if not more than factory ammo.

I agree here too, and you gain the benafit of much cheaper practice ammo identical to your carry ammo. On the down side, no matter what anyone likes to think, anymore the quality control at ammunition production centers is very, very high. Yes, every now and then there is a dud, but that is one in several million. Home loaders never hit that level of quality, if only becasue they never make that much ammunition. When you can mechanise/computerize your QA process, it's not limited by the human variable, dosen't get tired or bored.

 

[IM_Lugger]

total energy, but the 357 bullet comes apart in about 9 inches of penetration unless the hollow point is blocked. The 10mm, esp with heavier bullets has a much higher sectional density and penetrates like no tommorw.

just looked in Hornady catalogue and it looks like 180gr .357 has a bit higher SD than 200gr 10mm bullet...which isn't surprising since .357 is basically a 9mm. I like 10mm personally but I bet .357mag would out penetrate 10mm...