Fake or Fact - My Nazi Marked Mosin M44
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Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinM44S.htm
Germany Germany would have had little opportunity to capture M44s during WWII and even then they did not typically mark them and any "German or Nazi marked" M44 found on the US market should be viewed with great suspicion considering the proliferation of fake German stamps. There are East German marked M44s, but these were provided by the Soviet Union during the Cold War and subsequently returned to the Soviet Union where they were refurbished and later exported among the thousands of other carbines.
http://7.62x54r.net/Forums/index.php?topic=2942.20;wap2
Richard in NY:
I know the story on these "Nazi marked" M44 mosins, and it's not a happy one. These first surfaced in an ad in the Canadian "Gunrunner" newspaper (a publication very similar to our "Shotgun News"). It's been a long time (and my dating my not be accurate), but it was probably around 1990-'91. The story was that these were recently uncovered in one of the just liberated Combloc states (or maybe it was one of the former states in the (at the time) recently expired Soviet Union). There were numerous waffenampts and German test eagles on the barrel and the buttstock. When I say numerous, we're talking 5, maybe 6 stamps on the barrel and just about the same number on the wood.
I bought one of these from Bruce Stern in the early '90s. Some of you may have heard of him and his world class collection that was sold after his passing a couple of years ago. Bruce swore to me that these were "right". He was a friend so despite my skepticism and better judgment, I bought one. I knew in my bones that these "just found" rarities were bogus, but I didn't want to miss-out in case they were "right". My opinion then, my opinion now, Bruce Stern was wrong, these are phony. That opinion was shared by every knowledgeable collector I knew and associated with. I ended-up selling this clunker for about half of what I paid for it.
Keep in mind that when these showed up on the market, Mosins from the former USSR and Combloc states had not yet been imported. All we had were old, pre '68 imports, bringbacks and post '86 imports of Finnish and Chicom Mosins. Mosins (and other arms from the Communist countries) have always been available in Canada. It is presumed that the Nazi markings were just added to help sell inventory that would not otherwise move (and taking advantage of the then current political events to make up a plausible story as to why these marked Mosins suddenly appeared out of nowhere).
In the early to mid '90s I saw a good number of these marked M44 Mosins at some of the larger shows. My belief that these were phony was confirmed when (at the Allentown, PA show) I saw a 1946 dated Mosin with all the Nazi markings. Other than the date, it was identical to every other example I saw.
A similar scheme was employed to sell Steyr-Mannlicher m1895 carbines. Same stamps. abundantly applied. Just as fake.
One final note: every example of the phony Nazi Mosin I saw looked just like the Yugoslavian refurbed M44s. The sanded and oiled stocks were the most prominent feature. I was unaware of the "in the white" sight leaf characteristic at this time, so I don't remember whether my clunker also had this feature. It would be interesting to find out.
PS: Some where, in my out of control library, I have a copy of the Gunrunner advertisement. In the very unlikely event that it surfaces, I'll post same here.
Germany Germany would have had little opportunity to capture M44s during WWII and even then they did not typically mark them and any "German or Nazi marked" M44 found on the US market should be viewed with great suspicion considering the proliferation of fake German stamps. There are East German marked M44s, but these were provided by the Soviet Union during the Cold War and subsequently returned to the Soviet Union where they were refurbished and later exported among the thousands of other carbines.
http://7.62x54r.net/Forums/index.php?topic=2942.20;wap2
Richard in NY:
I know the story on these "Nazi marked" M44 mosins, and it's not a happy one. These first surfaced in an ad in the Canadian "Gunrunner" newspaper (a publication very similar to our "Shotgun News"). It's been a long time (and my dating my not be accurate), but it was probably around 1990-'91. The story was that these were recently uncovered in one of the just liberated Combloc states (or maybe it was one of the former states in the (at the time) recently expired Soviet Union). There were numerous waffenampts and German test eagles on the barrel and the buttstock. When I say numerous, we're talking 5, maybe 6 stamps on the barrel and just about the same number on the wood.
I bought one of these from Bruce Stern in the early '90s. Some of you may have heard of him and his world class collection that was sold after his passing a couple of years ago. Bruce swore to me that these were "right". He was a friend so despite my skepticism and better judgment, I bought one. I knew in my bones that these "just found" rarities were bogus, but I didn't want to miss-out in case they were "right". My opinion then, my opinion now, Bruce Stern was wrong, these are phony. That opinion was shared by every knowledgeable collector I knew and associated with. I ended-up selling this clunker for about half of what I paid for it.
Keep in mind that when these showed up on the market, Mosins from the former USSR and Combloc states had not yet been imported. All we had were old, pre '68 imports, bringbacks and post '86 imports of Finnish and Chicom Mosins. Mosins (and other arms from the Communist countries) have always been available in Canada. It is presumed that the Nazi markings were just added to help sell inventory that would not otherwise move (and taking advantage of the then current political events to make up a plausible story as to why these marked Mosins suddenly appeared out of nowhere).
In the early to mid '90s I saw a good number of these marked M44 Mosins at some of the larger shows. My belief that these were phony was confirmed when (at the Allentown, PA show) I saw a 1946 dated Mosin with all the Nazi markings. Other than the date, it was identical to every other example I saw.
A similar scheme was employed to sell Steyr-Mannlicher m1895 carbines. Same stamps. abundantly applied. Just as fake.
One final note: every example of the phony Nazi Mosin I saw looked just like the Yugoslavian refurbed M44s. The sanded and oiled stocks were the most prominent feature. I was unaware of the "in the white" sight leaf characteristic at this time, so I don't remember whether my clunker also had this feature. It would be interesting to find out.
PS: Some where, in my out of control library, I have a copy of the Gunrunner advertisement. In the very unlikely event that it surfaces, I'll post same here.
Russia launched offensives in Scandinavia while Germany was rolling over Poland an France. Since Russia was in bed with Germany during the early years of the war, and for quite a few prior, is it not possible that Russia provided arms?
Determining any sort of provenance on them would be nearly impossible. Its one of those things that you have to make your best guess on, but anyone who tells you with certainty that these are legit is doing so with a profound lack of evidence.
Interesting nonetheless, and if someone was selling them at the same price as a regular M44 I'd buy it just to own something so contested. I'd never pay extra for it though.
Interesting nonetheless, and if someone was selling them at the same price as a regular M44 I'd buy it just to own something so contested. I'd never pay extra for it though.
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Unfortunately, it's only worth half of an Un-Bubba-ed M44.
To pay the same for a dicked with bogus stamped M44 (or any other rifle) would be stupid as you're supporting the Faker.
Good luck with the resale value of a faked rifle too.....
CLAVEN2;
"I don't know what more to say??? If it smells like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and the stamps aren't even authentic looking or in the right places - it's a fake. Period.
Go try to get your money back. "
First you question my integrity, then my my honesty by saying "try to get your money back" ? DO you think I really need cash that bad that I would cheat someone out of a few dollars ? Do you really think my personal conduct would be any different than that of my company that built it's reputation on fair dealing ?
Let me ask you how many thousand Soviet arms have you examined in your obviously vast experience ?
How did you gain this experience, in person, second hand, heresay ??
This is the reply I gave the purchaser BEFORE I found this link:
I would appreciate the link since I value the opinions of the experts.... I just wonder why they were marked in that case ?? I purchased one lot of these rifles (20,000) which had been in a warehouse in Yugoslavia since the Russians left in 1947, ALL still in the original Russian wood cases.... What possible motive would whoever did this have, since I paid a flat rate for the entire lot and did not discover a few marked ones once they were here ???????????
Since you are not satisfied please return it for a full refund John
John
"I don't know what more to say??? If it smells like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and the stamps aren't even authentic looking or in the right places - it's a fake. Period.
Go try to get your money back. "
First you question my integrity, then my my honesty by saying "try to get your money back" ? DO you think I really need cash that bad that I would cheat someone out of a few dollars ? Do you really think my personal conduct would be any different than that of my company that built it's reputation on fair dealing ?
Let me ask you how many thousand Soviet arms have you examined in your obviously vast experience ?
How did you gain this experience, in person, second hand, heresay ??
This is the reply I gave the purchaser BEFORE I found this link:
I would appreciate the link since I value the opinions of the experts.... I just wonder why they were marked in that case ?? I purchased one lot of these rifles (20,000) which had been in a warehouse in Yugoslavia since the Russians left in 1947, ALL still in the original Russian wood cases.... What possible motive would whoever did this have, since I paid a flat rate for the entire lot and did not discover a few marked ones once they were here ???????????
Since you are not satisfied please return it for a full refund John
John
CLAVEN2;
"If this came from Yugoslavia, it did so after 40 years of use in civil defense, at cadet schools and a decade long civil war that ran longer than WW2. Good enough for you?"
Once again you fail to pay any attention to what I have said many times, even though I know you do not beleive me....THESE rifles cam from warehouses in Yugoslavia BEFOR the first Balkan war....BEFORE 1990....
Please show me when the Yugoslavs issued the M-44s, as a matter of fact it is a well known fact they did NOT like them.... WHo in his right mind would prefer a Nagant M-44 when they were producing and issuing Mauser rifles ?? But then again I imagine you are basing this on your numerous trips over there searching and inspecting every warehouse in the country ??
John
"If this came from Yugoslavia, it did so after 40 years of use in civil defense, at cadet schools and a decade long civil war that ran longer than WW2. Good enough for you?"
Once again you fail to pay any attention to what I have said many times, even though I know you do not beleive me....THESE rifles cam from warehouses in Yugoslavia BEFOR the first Balkan war....BEFORE 1990....
Please show me when the Yugoslavs issued the M-44s, as a matter of fact it is a well known fact they did NOT like them.... WHo in his right mind would prefer a Nagant M-44 when they were producing and issuing Mauser rifles ?? But then again I imagine you are basing this on your numerous trips over there searching and inspecting every warehouse in the country ??
John
CLAVEN2;
"Finally, everyone is taking John's word for it that these two rifles arrived direct from Yugo in 1990 and that he didn't stamp them.
I am not in the habit of having my word challenged. I tell you what my expert friend, I will allow you to come and go through our records, which are second to none ask the feds who often refer to them ....
I will let you search for this rifle, you will not only find when it was bought, which lot it was part of, which warehouse it came from, the inland shipping documents, the export documents, the import documents and our internal registry as well as the CFC registry when it came about....
Here is my bet I will bet you the $1,000. that I am right, if you prove me wrong You get $1000. if on the other hand I AM right you donate $1000. to CHEO in my name.... A deal ?
"I like John just fine, but in the absence of proof to the contrary the evidence points to only two outcomes:
1) John or his staff (maybe even his European staff) faked them; or
2) They were faked before John got them and he didn't have sufficient knowledge of capture markings to detect their fake-ness
I'm happy to hear you like me, I quetion how you would act if you did not....??
You are getting very close to slander my friend, very close....
John
"Finally, everyone is taking John's word for it that these two rifles arrived direct from Yugo in 1990 and that he didn't stamp them.
I am not in the habit of having my word challenged. I tell you what my expert friend, I will allow you to come and go through our records, which are second to none ask the feds who often refer to them ....
I will let you search for this rifle, you will not only find when it was bought, which lot it was part of, which warehouse it came from, the inland shipping documents, the export documents, the import documents and our internal registry as well as the CFC registry when it came about....
Here is my bet I will bet you the $1,000. that I am right, if you prove me wrong You get $1000. if on the other hand I AM right you donate $1000. to CHEO in my name.... A deal ?
"I like John just fine, but in the absence of proof to the contrary the evidence points to only two outcomes:
1) John or his staff (maybe even his European staff) faked them; or
2) They were faked before John got them and he didn't have sufficient knowledge of capture markings to detect their fake-ness
I'm happy to hear you like me, I quetion how you would act if you did not....??
You are getting very close to slander my friend, very close....
John
- Location
- East ontario
Lets face it guys, the chance in john being wrong on this is so small its not even worth thinking about.
John is in one the toughtest biz in the world and Marstar is rated one of the best in that biz.
I would just back away from the keyboard and forget about it.
bbb
John is in one the toughtest biz in the world and Marstar is rated one of the best in that biz.
I would just back away from the keyboard and forget about it.
bbb
John, I realize you aren't happy with what I have posted. Please note that on this and other forums, I am FAR from the only person questioning the authenticity of this piece.
I have no wish to have a public argument with you and I sincerely hope you will go back and re-read my comments. When not viewed while you are angry, you can see I honestly believe the rifle is not legitimate. I do not anywhere claim that you are trying to deceive anyone or that you altered the rifle. Please note that you truncated my quotes.
I also have no wish to trade "I've seen X number soviet rifles" type comments as that adds nothing to the analysis of this M44.
I have numerous times stated I frequent Marstar as a customer and believe your business to be first rate. In this one instance, I think the rifle is a fake, as do dozens of other posters. I've also seen your collection in person, the immensity of it, and it's reasonable for someone to ask if you always recollect the exact circumstances of the acquisition of every rifle. My collection is less vast and certainly I forget things. If you have paperwork to the contrary then I apologize for this supposition.
Nevertheless, please realize my comments are not an assault on your integrity. The very best dealers have inadvertently sold items that later turned out to be something other than what was thought. I personally believe this to be one of those cases.
I have no wish to have a public argument with you and I sincerely hope you will go back and re-read my comments. When not viewed while you are angry, you can see I honestly believe the rifle is not legitimate. I do not anywhere claim that you are trying to deceive anyone or that you altered the rifle. Please note that you truncated my quotes.
I also have no wish to trade "I've seen X number soviet rifles" type comments as that adds nothing to the analysis of this M44.
I have numerous times stated I frequent Marstar as a customer and believe your business to be first rate. In this one instance, I think the rifle is a fake, as do dozens of other posters. I've also seen your collection in person, the immensity of it, and it's reasonable for someone to ask if you always recollect the exact circumstances of the acquisition of every rifle. My collection is less vast and certainly I forget things. If you have paperwork to the contrary then I apologize for this supposition.
Nevertheless, please realize my comments are not an assault on your integrity. The very best dealers have inadvertently sold items that later turned out to be something other than what was thought. I personally believe this to be one of those cases.
Two words: Mitchell's Mausers.
I get your point though, I was just coming from the "a 150 dollar rifle is a 150 dollar rifle... it can't get much cheaper than that" perspective. Also, if someone is selling faked "rare" rifles at the same price as normal ones, I don't think they really thought through the whole process.
There is a huge export trade in russia selling fake nazi everything from cameras, knives, tools, guns, tableware, you name it. I was in Moscow in the 90s and saw guys selling punches with the SS runes, Luftwafffen eagle, everything. It was very easy to do and lots of people did it and made a bit of dough.
Here's more food for thought. The rifle serial is HB5149. H is the 14th letter in the Soviet alphabet and B is the third. This means the rifle pictured is at least the 419,958th M44 produced at Izhevsk in 1945. This would put production into April or so. Hostilities ended on May5th with formal surrender on May6th. In other words, the rifle would have had to be captured, marked, and re-issued in the last 5 weeks of the war when the Soviets were already within 20km of Berlin.
John is a stand-up guy and did offer me a full refund. We will work something out I know. The bottom line on the waffens is that they are factory marks and shouldn't appear on weapons Germany didn't manufacture in the first place.
Will keep you updated.
Will keep you updated.
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The Alpha Prefixes for Mosins were assigned by random. They are not in alphabetical order as Mausers are.
Under Alpha Prefix:
"Alpha prefix The letters preceding the serial numbers on Soviet and Eastern European Mosin Nagants. They represent a block of 9,999 rifles and were apparently assigned at random."http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSerial.htm
Also Here under Numbers:
4. Numbers
Up to the year 1937 the serial numbering system of the Czarist era was continued, which means, rifles started with serial number one every year. There are no numbers with more than six digits. Tula used the German influenced, as my Russian friend told me, "No." in front of the numbers, Izhevsk did not.
Beginning 1938 the system of numbering changed. Serial numbers still began the year numbered from one, but now with a Cyrillic character (like ) as a prefix, followed by one to five numerals. After making 99.999 rifles the Soviets used two Cyrillic characters (like ), followed by up to four numerals. There was no system in using the Cyrillic characters, which had the purpose to code the production data. The same way of numbering is found on the carbines M1938 and later M1944.http://mosinnagant.net/ussr/Soviet-M9130.asp
I've already stated my opinion, just stating the above fact.
Under Alpha Prefix:
"Alpha prefix The letters preceding the serial numbers on Soviet and Eastern European Mosin Nagants. They represent a block of 9,999 rifles and were apparently assigned at random."http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSerial.htm
Also Here under Numbers:
4. Numbers
Up to the year 1937 the serial numbering system of the Czarist era was continued, which means, rifles started with serial number one every year. There are no numbers with more than six digits. Tula used the German influenced, as my Russian friend told me, "No." in front of the numbers, Izhevsk did not.
Beginning 1938 the system of numbering changed. Serial numbers still began the year numbered from one, but now with a Cyrillic character (like ) as a prefix, followed by one to five numerals. After making 99.999 rifles the Soviets used two Cyrillic characters (like ), followed by up to four numerals. There was no system in using the Cyrillic characters, which had the purpose to code the production data. The same way of numbering is found on the carbines M1938 and later M1944.http://mosinnagant.net/ussr/Soviet-M9130.asp
I've already stated my opinion, just stating the above fact.
