Fast Twist Quarter Bore

hunter-4-life

hunter-4-life

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Ive always wanted to dabble in the quarterbore game. Last fall I scooped up a beautiful Weatherby Vangaurd Lazerguard in 257 and paired with a Leupold VX1 3-9x40. Got some 115 Bergers and found a nice load using H1000 and they run 3330fps in my 24" pipe. Wicked. That combo is flat, hits like a freight train and in my opinion, is the ultimate flat land Saskatchewan caliber (and i'm a 270 freak). But it left me wanting more after reading about these new 135gr and 133gr Berger bullets for the 25 cal. However, I need a faster twist to spin em.

A few weeks ago I called up Gary at BigHorn Sales and had him send me a benchmark 7.25 twist 25 cal blank. And after doing some digging, I had my sights set on a 25 SAUM. It seems very common for guys to run a 135 Berger at 3200fps+ out of a 24" pipe with the SAUM. Those numbers make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, knowing what my bee does with the 115 at 3330fps. My smith has the SAUM reamer, ADG makes 6.5 SAUM brass, just neck it down, mandrel it and have fun. But now i'm second guessing the SAUM, seeing as I have the dies and brass for a 257 wby, and I have a 700 Long action mag bf sitting here, I could go either route, the SAUM or the Bee. And I have no desire to re-barrel the Vanguard as I don't want to ruin the look of it. That deep blueing paired with that beautiful wood just looks good and I dont wanna change it. Especially with how it shoots, don't fix something that isn't broken. And having that 10 twist option for the light pills is also nice as i'm certain unless you ran a mono bullet, youd spin everything else apart with that 7.25 twist.

My question is, has anyone here ever played with a fast twist 257 wby? I'd have to assume with the case capacities of both being very close they should be similar in velocty but what kind of velocity are you seeing with it? If you had to pick between the SAUM and the Weatherby, which one are you leaning towards? I'm not afraid to spend the $$ on dies and brass for the SAUM, but if i'm not going to see any sort of ballistic advantage to the SAUM over the Weatherby, why bother?
 
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257 weatherby has 84gr water capacity. 300 weatherby is 98gr.

Might be fun, but probably only for a short time, say 600-800 shots. Your 257 is already fun. But using the other action and building something else gives you two rifles, probably not much more money. Is what I've described basically a 257 weatherby rpm?
 
JJ-65 said:
A 10 twist 257 Weatherby will stabilize the 135gr Berger running at 3200fps, 970M ASL here at my range.
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Without a doubt, it would not be stable here. I'm at 1900 feet (580M) and my SG is 1 and you need that 1.5 ish to be stable according to bergers calculator. I could always try some just for fun, but I wouldn't want to do it long term.


nowarningshot said:
257 weatherby has 84gr water capacity. 300 weatherby is 98gr.

Might be fun, but probably only for a short time, say 600-800 shots. Your 257 is already fun. But using the other action and building something else gives you two rifles, probably not much more money. Is what I've described basically a 257 weatherby rpm?
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This sounds interesting. Im not sure its quite an RPM as the Weatherby has the 6.5-300 wby and the 6.5 RPM with the RPM being smaller. But a 25 RPM might be worth a look.
The 25-7prc is also a thing. West Texas Ordinance has built a few. But its essentially a non belted 257 wby, not worth the headache of necking down brass. I even considered a 25-06 AI or a 25-284 win, but if im going that route, you might as well stay with a 257 wby as well.
 
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I would say "why bother". The bigger cartridges can require considerably longer barrels for best velocity... Shorter barrels = less velocity.

The 257 Wby is a fantastic 25 caliber... hard to beat it without wasting a lot of money...
 
MiG25 said:
I dunno, if the 257 doesn't do it for you why not get a 264.
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I think you misunderstood the post. I like my 257 enough that I want another one, in a fast twist, to run the heavy 25 cal leads. The heavy 25's, on paper, beat the majority of 6.5mm numbers. With the exception of the 153.5 or 156 berger being pushed hard in a 6.5-300 or a different large overbore caliber. But again, look at the velocity you will lose vs the BC you gain, running that heavy of a lead in a medium/short action caliber like a 6.5 PRC or 6.5-284.

The 25 cal 135 Berger has a G1 of 0.650
The 264 140 Berger VLD Hunting has a G1 of 0.600
The 264 144 Hybrid has a G1 of 0.655
The 264 153.5 Hybrid has a G1 of 0.694

You push that 135 3200+fps (i've talked to guys getting 3330-3340 fps with RL26 and H1000 will get you to 3250+fps depending on barrel length, the most common I read is guys running a 24" pipe for weight savings and mountain hunting)
If you took that 135 at 3200 fps for easy math, and compared it to a 144gr Berger at 2950 out of a 6.5 PRC or 6.5-284, that 135 will be flatter, faster and hit harder than that 144.

All things equal (wind, elevation, temp etc) I ran the #'s on Bergers site.

25 cal 135gr 3150 fps @ 1000 yards retains 1842 fps, 1018 ft/lbs of energy and drops 221"
264 cal 144 @ 2950 fps @ 1000 yards retains 1698 fps, 922 ft/lbs of energy and drops 257"
264 cal 153.5 @ 2900 fps @ 1000 yards retains 1727 fps, 1013 ft/lbs of energy and drops 260"

I went a little on the conservative side with the velocities, even with the SAUM I used 3150 even though I know 3200-3300 is achievable as we all know every rifle is different with pressure and everyone has their own way of doing things. I have read of guys running the 153.5 Bergers at 3050 fps in their rifles, mine I had ran 2875 fps before that was all it had left in the tank. So take those velocities with a grain of salt.

Are the differences staggering? Not really, to some it might be an eye opener that the 264's have some competition coming behind them.

The 25 cals were a dying breed and these new heavy, high BC bullets are kind of bringing them back to life. The 25 Creed is taking over the PRS and NRL scene in a hurry.

Maybe my numbers arent lining up, but I think it would be a cool project to take on and see what happens.
 
guntech said:
I would say "why bother". The bigger cartridges can require considerably longer barrels for best velocity... Shorter barrels = less velocity.

The 257 Wby is a fantastic 25 caliber... hard to beat it without wasting a lot of money...
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I love mine as well, its a very hard to beat caliber. Im just not sure the case design could take full advantage of the 133-135 bullets. Maybe i'm totally wrong, I guess I could load up some heavies in my 257 and do a ladder test and see. Although i'm sure the 10 twist would maybe skew those numbers slightly with that bullet not being stable.

I just know in my 257 wby with the 115 berger, that 3330 fps was about as hard as I could push it, with a 24" pipe. I know if I had a 26" you might see another 40-50 fps. It also happened to be the most accurate load with H1000, but Im seeing slight pressure signs and I don't wanna go any higher. Thats why I'm unsure if the 257 bee will run that 135 at the same velocity the SAUM case will. I do believe it just comes down to case design.
 
I realize you say you want to play with a 25 cal witch would be fun your trying to make it perform like a cartridges that’s are much better for the job
Evee we n a standard 270win with a 140 gr Berger performs very well out to 1200 yds
 
struff55 said:
I realize you say you want to play with a 25 cal witch would be fun your trying to make it perform like a cartridges that’s are much better for the job
Evee we n a standard 270win with a 140 gr Berger performs very well out to 1200 yds
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Heres a comparison of the 25 SAUM, 6.5 PRC, 7mm rem mag and 270 win. I copied and pasted the info from above and added the 270 win in with a 140 VLD.

25 cal 135gr 3150 fps @ 1000 yards retains 1842 fps, 1018 ft/lbs of energy and drops 221"
264 cal 144 @ 2950 fps @ 1000 yards retains 1698 fps, 922 ft/lbs of energy and drops 257"
264 cal 153.5 @ 2900 fps @ 1000 yards retains 1727 fps, 1013 ft/lbs of energy and drops 260"
270 cal 140 @2950 @ 1000 yards retains 1386 fps, 597 ft/lbs of energy and drops 302"
7mm 180 @ 2800 fps @ 1000 yards retains 1614 fps, 1041 ft/lbs of energy and drops 286" **I averaged out velocity for this load, some guys ran them 2900+ but they also all had 28" barrels, trying to maintain consistency with 24" velocity**

Im a 270 fan, shot one (win or wsm) my whole life. But the 135gr 25 cal berger pushed mildly still knocks the boots off the 270 running that 140 at 2950 fps.

Under 500-600 yards, all these things don't make a difference, lets face it, the deer/antelope wont know the difference. But when it comes to the longer range hunting, which in Southern Sask/Southern AB can be very prevalent, that extra 400-500ft/lbs of energy and 400-500 fps can make a big difference. When I was antelope hunting 2 years ago, had I been more confident in my skill set and been setup better, I could have taken a few very large animals, but you couldn't sneak within 700 yards of them, and Im an avid archery hunter, spot n stalk isn't new to me.

Im not sure what you mean by "trying to make it perform like a cartridge that are much better for the job" how do you think the 270 came around? Someone took the 30-06 and necked it down to 27 cal. And i'm a firm believer that had Jack O'Connor not praised the 270 like he did, it would not even be here today. The shooting world is always evolving, guys are always trying new things and just cause your 30-06 or 270 works for you, and even me for that matter, doesn't mean there isn't something out there that someone has come up with and found it to be very useful for certain situations. Ive always been toying with wildcats from the 20x47 Lapua, 22-284 win, some Ackley Imp calibers etc. This is very much a "for fun" project.
 
I dunno...but here is my 2 cents.
257 vs 264....big whopping 7thou difference.
All your data is based on the ONE available way heavy for caliber 135gr Berger 25cal bullet... what if it sucks at accuracy or killing? Your ####ed that's what happens lol.
#### loads of 6.5 bullets both hunting and target with same or higher BC, so if you are going Wildcatish with the 25cal, why not go wildcatish with the 6.5?
Throw those crazy high BC 6.5 bullets at the same or higher velocity, beats your 25cal stuff and you have way more options.
6.5-300PRC or some#### like that, i dunno, seems like a better route to me.
 
The utube has a guy who is try this very combo
He is at 5000 ft in Colorado, and the bullets will marginally stabilize out his 1 / 10 twist
Weatherby reloader is the channel. Guys a good turd. Smart.

1 and 9 would be perfect for those heavey 133 and 135 pills.
I've got 28 on my rifle, also 1 /10 . 115 and 100gr for fur is plenty
 
Hitzy said:
I dunno...but here is my 2 cents.
257 vs 264....big whopping 7thou difference.
All your data is based on the ONE available way heavy for caliber 135gr Berger 25cal bullet... what if it sucks at accuracy or killing? Your ####ed that's what happens lol.
#### loads of 6.5 bullets both hunting and target with same or higher BC, so if you are going Wildcatish with the 25cal, why not go wildcatish with the 6.5?
Throw those crazy high BC 6.5 bullets at the same or higher velocity, beats your 25cal stuff and you have way more options.
6.5-300PRC or some#### like that, i dunno, seems like a better route to me.
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Fair point, and I should have mentioned this earlier however there are a few higher BC options for the 25 cal these days, with more coming out. Its just that what i've read, and seen photos of, the 135 has no issues with killing. If anything, it blows too big of a hole in deer sized game. But, in case it doesn't like the rifle, there are some other options like the 133 Berger Elite Hunter, Hornady has come out with the 134 ELD-M, the 131 Blackjack Ace is *allegedly* coming back (essentially that was a Sierra bullet with a different name on it) I do think its a matter of time until we see more heavy 25 cal offerings. Nosler has yet to come out with something, and everyone else has so i'm sure it wont be long until we see a 130-140 ABLR from them. Again especially with the 25 Creed becoming so popular down south in PRS and NRL Hunter. As far as going wildcatish with a 6.5, lets face it. They have all been done, and by done I mean commercialized. 26 Nosler, 6.5-300 wby, 6.5 PRC, 6.5-06, 6.5-06 AI, 6.5-284 (the OG), hell you got the 264 win mag, 6.5x55 sweed, they never end. The whole world is 6.5 this n that, and I'm kinda over it haha But the 25 field has been forgotten about, and its finally getting some attention....the train is comin, and i'm all aboard lol

When I pick a caliber to build, I generally pick the bullet I want to shoot first, then build the caliber and rifle from there. If the bullet doesnt shoot, I will try something else but I can honestly say in any of my custom rifles/wildcats i've never had the bullet I picked not shoot. Some are more fussy than others, but they've all done what I wanted them too.

When I built my 22-284 win, I wanted to run 90gr SMK's, that was it, so I built it on a 6.5 twist. I didnt have a choice, it had to shoot the 90's....it would spin anything else apart.
When I built my 20x47 Lapua, I wanted to run the 55gr 20cal berger, again with a 8 twist 20 cal blank, they had to shoot. Any other bullet would spin apart at such high RPM.
When I built my 22-250 AI, I wanted to run 75gr Berger VLD
When I built my 6BR, I wanted to run the 105 Bergers
 
If the 25 creedmore is taking off in the states then I would certainly see more manufacturers coming out with high bc, heavy bullets.

Mentioned in a post above, the YouTube channel is Reloading Weatherby. Guy seems more a point to numbers on a reloading manual guy, rather than a range rat. He claims to have shot a 135gr(?) from a 1-10 twist Vanguard 257 Weatherby. Sounds like if it would, it's on the edge of instability.

The op sounds like a tinkered, with a large budget. Even so, if the US is getting into 25 caliber/25creedmore it might be wise to wait. The immense popularity of the 6.5 creedmore led to the weatherby 6.5's, the 6.5 prc; even spun into 6.8 western, 300/7 prc. Someone may be inventing this mousetrap for you. Sounds like a Hornady thing to do, they could do all the development and you would have actual headstamped brass.
 
nowarningshot said:
If the 25 creedmore is taking off in the states then I would certainly see more manufacturers coming out with high bc, heavy bullets.

Mentioned in a post above, the YouTube channel is Reloading Weatherby. Guy seems more a point to numbers on a reloading manual guy, rather than a range rat. He claims to have shot a 135gr(?) from a 1-10 twist Vanguard 257 Weatherby. Sounds like if it would, it's on the edge of instability.

The op sounds like a tinkered, with a large budget. Even so, if the US is getting into 25 caliber/25creedmore it might be wise to wait. The immense popularity of the 6.5 creedmore led to the weatherby 6.5's, the 6.5 prc; even spun into 6.8 western, 300/7 prc. Someone may be inventing this mousetrap for you. Sounds like a Hornady thing to do, they could do all the development and you would have actual headstamped brass.
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Thing is, I dont shoot factory ammo. I reload everything, so even if Hornady came out with something like this project, it wouldn't affect the outcome of it. Like you said, this is strictly a tinker project cause I like doing stuff like this, except I do still want it to be useful. I do think you're going to see more heavy high BC bullets coming out. And i'd like to be ahead of the game before supply can't keep up with demand like what we're seeing now with the heavies. The heavy 25's are everywhere and actually pretty reasonable to shoot, unlike some 6.5mm bullets.
 
Why bother? The 257 Weatherby is a big game hunting cartridge, not ment for long range shooting or killing. Fast twist and heavy/longer bullets is non-sense in my hunting world however, it is probably a fad what will fade-away, similar to the recent innovated cartridges, such as the WSM, et al.
 
track said:
Why bother? The 257 Weatherby is a big game hunting cartridge, not ment for long range shooting or killing. Fast twist and heavy/longer bullets is non-sense in my hunting world however, it is probably a fad what will fade-away, similar to the recent innovated cartridges, such as the WSM, et al.
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Most high bc bullets retain energy and velocity, " passing" older/lighter bullets around 500 yds. So I completely agree with you. I personally try to limit myself to 300yds, the exception being dusk on the last day of a trip.

A lot of these new calibers are basically designed to run high bc/heavy bullets but are basically equivalent to legacy calibers. A few I can think of:

264wm》》》》6.5 prc
6.5x55sw》》》6.5 creedmore
7rm》》》7prc
300wm》》》300prc

Kind of a derail. Back to the thread.......nothing to see here.
 
track said:
Why bother? The 257 Weatherby is a big game hunting cartridge, not ment for long range shooting or killing. Fast twist and heavy/longer bullets is non-sense in my hunting world however, it is probably a fad what will fade-away, similar to the recent innovated cartridges, such as the WSM, et al.
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As another gentleman has commented below, the higher BC bullets retain more energy and velocity at further distance's appealing to certain hunters like myself. It might not be your cup of tea and thats fine, but times are changing and people are realizing this. A close friend and hunting partner of mine was a die hard 300 win mag shooter his whole life. He ran a 200gr Berger with H1000 and swore by it....until he shot my Fierce 6.5 PRC....2 days later he bought an X-Bolt 6.5 PRC and a week after getting it, he folded his 373" bull elk up like a cheap lawn chair at 640 yards with it. 143 ELD-X and RL26 at 3060 fps did the trick. His 300 win mag hasn't left the safe since, he said why would I beat my shoulder up trying to be a better shot and practice when this caliber does what my 300 has yet to do and has half the recoil(and no, neither one is braked). He enjoys shooting it and practicing with it, which in-turn makes him a better shot and a more ethical hunter.

As far as the WSM cal's, they're still very popular, I wouldn't call them "fads" they've been around for over 20 years. The only one I would call a flop would be the 325 wsm. But the 300 WSM and 270 WSM are still thriving to this day. 7mm WSM? Still somewhat relevant in the F-Class community, but borderline a flop as well. The issue is finding ammo and due to a lawsuit in the states, something to do with copyrights and patents, thats whats causing the shortage.

Ill correct one sentence for you.....not intended for long range shooting or killing....Neither was the 300 win mag....or the 7mm rem mag....But with todays advancements in heavy, higher BC bullets being able to be pushed fast, this has changed. See story above....
 
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