fast vs slow powder. whats this mean to me?

jude_00

jude_00

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hey all! im looking at loading some 45ACP rounds. from what I read, Titegroup seems to be number 1, followed closely by W231, and Bullseye right behind for 200 grain cast bullets. my big question is, when would I choose a slow powder like Green Dot or Universal, and when would I choose a fast powder like Bullseye? I understand they have different benifits, but dont know what those would be. propelling a bullet is propelling a bullet to me as long as its listed in a loading bible? when would I choose a slow powder, or a fast powder?

thanks in advance!
 
jude_00 said:
hey all! im looking at loading some 45ACP rounds. from what I read, Titegroup seems to be number 1, followed closely by W231, and Bullseye right behind for 200 grain cast bullets. my big question is, when would I choose a slow powder like Green Dot or Universal, and when would I choose a fast powder like Bullseye? I understand they have different benifits, but dont know what those would be. propelling a bullet is propelling a bullet to me as long as its listed in a loading bible? when would I choose a slow powder, or a fast powder?

thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

In general you choose a powder that is slower when the bullet weight is increased. It is harder to accelerate a heavy bullet so you want the powder to burn slowly at first to get the bullet moving. A fast powder and heavy bullet will cause high pressure.
 
OK, forget about bullet weight, and think about feeling...
for example . if i load 4.3 grains of titegroup behind a 124 grain bullet, its a fast but "snappy" feeling.

if i load 5 grains of longshot. its the same speed but more of soft feeling.. like a push instead of a snap.

really just play with it,
these below are 9mm load data from hodgdon.com.

titegroup.jpg

longshotpowder.jpg


you can see that longshot here has more powder and little bit more pressure, but the "feeling" of the two powders are different.

p.s I'm not saying theres not something about bullet weight and there could be.. I'm just saying that i use different powders for different feelings .
 
Its all about pressure and burning time. First of all the firearm needs to be able to handle the pressure of the load ( in cases of antiques), and the other is burning time. ie: A slow burning powder will spit out the end of your handgun or short barrel as opposed to a continuous building of pressure during a bullets travel in a long barrel. A fast powder has much more instant pressure for short barrels but has no advantage in a longer barrel as the bullet travels to the muzzle its pressure is already max'd out..
 
It IS about pressure - heavier bullet will NOT start moving as fast as lighter bullet down the barrel thus creating additional volume for expanding gas created by burning powder. This is why it has to be lower burning rate powder.
 
yes i agree, it is about pressure and bullet weight, but i say ( and feel free to take it with a grain of salt) once you have decided on the bullet weight that you want to shoot , look at some load data, try out different powders and chronograph them so you know what your shooting.

I have never loaded for rifle, so I know nothing of it.
I only know what i get and feel out of my 5 inch barrel
 
so, the slower powders will give you more of a push, but have more flamethrower effect, and the faster powders will be better in shorter barrels and lighter bullets? I'll try a few different powders and see what works well in my 4.25" 1911, but I'm trying to find a nice, light load for 200 grain LSWC's. I have ready access to most hodgdon powders, and some of the alliant line. I can't get my hands on vhit or winchester locally, so I'd like to stick with alliant or hodgdon. I'll try a few powders and see how it goes though!
 
For jacketed bullets, heavy vs light bullets applies. However cast bullets, either heavy or light don't usually work well with slow burning powders. Especially for large diameter(ie .45 acp), the bullet engraves very easily, and volume behind bullet expands rapidly, favouring fast burning powders(bullseye, 231, unique), but striving for max velocity not a good idea because of leading risk and dangerous high pressures. It's possible to double charge fast burning powders, which scares off the careless types.
 
the booklet in my die set says clays is one of the milder loads for 200 grain lead bullets, so I'll give that a go. I'll test a few different powders, because I'll be casting the bullets so I should have plenty of SWC's to test out!
 
well, in the loading manual, you look up your bullet. your then faced with a list of chamber pressures, velocities, and start and max loadings. you keep your chamber pressures within either SAAMI or CIP standards (I load my mauser ammo to CIP standards). im sure theres a reason for the selection of powders, however, it fails to point out what the benefits of using X powder would be. I've been picking "a reasonable loading" off the list, and sticking with that, but was wondering if there was some rhyme or reason to choose one powder out of the list of 15 for the given projectile and weight.

thanks!
 
.. oh. lol so far, Ive been doing most of my research on the internet. theres alot of reputable sites with load data on them (the nosler site, as well as some other manufacturers) and the leaflett that came with my dies. Ive steered clear of "uncle jimbos defense loads" but haven't bought a proper load book. it just seems like online databases are more easily updated than printed matter. Ive looked around, but couldn't find much info on what I ask. I find lots of "this powders my pet powder" but not much theory on it, and its got to be more than just trial and error to find a good powder out of the safe possibilities. With my rifle, I started with a load a lot of mauser guys used, and tuned it in for my rifle. I heard about 3.6 - 4.2 gn of clays is good under my 200 grain LSWC for my 45, so I'll try that, but am getting alot more interested in the theory.

I'm starting to see that these load manuals have a bit more info in them than just the load data. might have to invest in a couple. lol
 
^^STOP!!! For frig's sake man, get a manual, get a copy of The ABC's of Reloading, and a copy of Modern Reloading. These are minimum requirements on your reloading bench, by my standards anyway. Once you have them, READ them. Then start reloading.

I have at least a dozen reloading manuals/books.
 
I bought a reloading manual, but lent it to a freind a long time ago! The internet has a lot to offer, and I have several references from alliant and hodgdon that do me just fine!

I don't think the loading manual is as important if all you want to do is load bulk cheap ammo, but if you want to know what you are doing and why, or work up some more accurate loads there is a lot to know that is not available anywhere else.

Your interest in such things as burn rate makes me think you should check out a load manual. See if you can find an older one, without the pussy loads, and a million warnings!
 
rookie wildcat said:
^^STOP!!! For frig's sake man, get a manual, get a copy of The ABC's of Reloading, and a copy of Modern Reloading. These are minimum requirements on your reloading bench, by my standards anyway. Once you have them, READ them. Then start reloading.

I have at least a dozen reloading manuals/books.
Click to expand...

Yep, READ FIRST, and FOLLOW DIRECTIONS EXACTLY. Do not make generalizations or extrapolate as to what you can and can't do/change.

Even the reloading books are very general in nature, but for practical purposes, follow them.



The subject of internal ballistics is very complicated, and as in the above thread, is very much simplified by simply saying a powder is slow/fast and bullet weight is heavy/light, and a certain charge generates a certain peak pressure.

For instance, peak pressure and peak velocity are also only loosely related. For instance, the peak pressure in a handgun round such as the 45, occurs after the bullet has travelled between 1/8 and 1/4" (hasn't even left the case). From that point on (peak pressure), the pressure is decreasing.

The point is don't make assumptions as to how you expect something to behave, it's not always the case.

Read, learn and safe loading.
 
well, with what I have, Ive been doing what the previous person said. turning out a large number of cheap, known good loads for my mauser because I cant find the ammo locally. I started at the reduced load, and found my sweet spot for accuracy that was under the max load. I do want to understand more about whats going on, so the manuals will be where I go. I follow the recipes to a tee, working up from a reduced load, and dont aim to have any mishaps! my sources so far have been the nosler site, hodgdons page, and I tend to stick with the better known combinations.

time for more reading!
 
jude_00 said:
well, in the loading manual, you look up your bullet. your then faced with a list of chamber pressures, velocities, and start and max loadings. you keep your chamber pressures within either SAAMI or CIP standards (I load my mauser ammo to CIP standards). im sure theres a reason for the selection of powders, however, it fails to point out what the benefits of using X powder would be. I've been picking "a reasonable loading" off the list, and sticking with that, but was wondering if there was some rhyme or reason to choose one powder out of the list of 15 for the given projectile and weight.

thanks!
Click to expand...

You have pointed out a beef I have with modern loading books and how they have taught the newer generation of reloaders.
From years of reading the posts on CGN it is plain that newer reloaders have not been taught to think things out for themselves. They have been taught to do exactly as the loading books say and don't question why things are done in a certain way.
At the start of my reloading career I was taught that an ideal powder, for any rifle cartridge, with any bullet, was a powder that just about completely filled the case in order to raise the proper amount of pressure.
Thus, out of the fifteen powders that may be suitable, the one, or ones, with the greatest amount of powder, will likely be the most efficient and a good chance of being the most accurate.
From here on, think it out. Do you want to pay for more powder to get the most efficient, or will 4895 do, instead of 4350 and save a bit on powder.
In any case, you should know the reasoning behind such things, including the great choices in powders available.
 
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