Faster powders for shorter barrels - say 1680 for a 16 inch 308

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Muzzle blast is subjective. I am wearing ear muffs, too. It would be nice to be able to compare.

Is there an app for my i phone that could give me numbers to compare?

I've done a bit more research on other sites and I tend to agree with the general conclusion that, unless we're talking about unusually short barrels, it is likely that you will never come-up with a load of fast burning powder – in a given caliber – which provides more velocity than a safe load of a slower powder in that same shortish barrel.

It does look, however, like you can reach a point where the velocity differences between the two are pretty insignificant; whereas the slower burning solution might yield a lot more muzzle flash and concussion – potentially making the faster burning load a more-preferable trade-off for shooters who care about such things – like me.

As an aside, the video suggests that you can come-up with a “less blasty” gun with higher muzzle energy, if you go so far as to transitioning from one caliber to another (say an 8” 7.62x39 verses 8” 308). Interesting, but as noted, It looks like unlikely that you can achieve this within one caliber, just by optimizing powder choices, in relation to barrel length.

IMO, none of the above takes-away from the conclusion that picking the right powder for the applicable barrel length is important. To pick an intentional-extreme example, I kind’a think I’d use a different powder in a 2½ 357 magnum pistol versus ammo loaded for an 1895 Marlin, in that caliber.

I also agree with all that QL is a useful predictive tool – but that everything has to be validated by testing. I know that Evanguy was planning to do some testing with comparative loads obtained by another poster – in a very valuable no. Mk. III. I’m sure that all will be interested in the results.

You brought-up the matter of sound meters. I bought one from the Source, a while back, and have found it to be a useful tool (LINK). The mods will forgive me for mentioning the product of a non-sponsor – as that item is now out of stock (as such, no plug provided).

Similar devices are listed on the web, starting at around $25 - for what seem to be decent items.

I’m an Android guy and it look me seconds to locate and install a free sound meter app from the Play Store (one of what appears to be a list of about 50 such apps, found there).

I have used the real sound meter (from the Source), but not used the app in field testing. For all I know, the apps may be more for testing noise levels from traffic in your neighborhood, etc. - and might not have the range to handle gunshots. And, I suppose it is possible that a smartphone could be damaged by capturing the sound from a nearby gun blast. Buying a cheap, dedicated sound meter might actually be a better choice. Otherwise, in order to try things out, maybe you could borrow a smartphone from another of the posters – I can suggest a few.

In Quicklo*d's lower right quadrant, is field entitled “Values when bullet base exits muzzle”, … “muzzle pressure”. This is the field that you want to minimize, to achieve a nice-shooting load, in a shortish barreled rifle – all other things being equal.

I wouldn’t be surprised if loads with a low number in this field could be accurate loads; since the exiting bullet wouldn't be as disrupted by the forces of a lot of high pressure gases, struggling to get past the bullet – just as it leave the bore. Just a guess there.

BTW lots of bench rest guys use guns with barrels less than 16" so this development work could be useful to others.
 
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Good post. Glad to see it

I can still do the test if you wish. But we all know the out come now.

As noted, we don't really know the outcome without testing. Best case scenario I hope that you find a fast powder load that has insignificantly less velocity than the slow powder counterpart with night-and-day differences in muzzle blast. If you are willing to do the testing, that would be great.
 
I have downloaded an app for my iphone to measure sound levels. I don't know if it cam measure a gunshot. If it does, I will record both velocity and sound level for each increment in powder charge for the 60 rounds I made to test fast and slow powders, light and heavy bullets in 18" and 24" barrels.

I wanted to be able to measure and quantify the muzzle blast. For $5.00 I bought an app for my iphone - SPLnFFT, that measures noise.

I don't know how well it will measure a short load noise, like a gunshot, but I will soon find out.

So far I have only tested it with a 22 revolver (80db) and a 45ACP pistol (84db).

I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but if it will tell me more or less loud than another gun, that will help.

.
 
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In Quicklo*d's lower right quadrant, is field entitled “Values when bullet base exits muzzle”, … “muzzle pressure”. This is the field that you want to minimize, to achieve a nice-shooting load, in a shortish barreled rifle – all other things being equal.

So, how much pressure does it take to force a bullet through a barrel? I don't think you want the muzzle pressure to ever get lower than that level, or your bullet will be slowing down rapidly even before it leaves the barrel. Actually, I want my bullets accelerating for the full length of the barrel, as almost all of them do. That's why longer barrels tend to be faster than short ones. If you're not careful, you may find your bullet popping out of the end of the barrel with the sound of a champagne cork, and then falling to the ground like... well .... a champagne cork. :rolleyes:
 
I'm curious about the lots of benchrest guys who use guns with barrels less than 16".

They would probably use a faster powder to match the lighter bullets they tend to use.

A light bullet has less inertia, so starts to move sooner and faster than a slow bullet. This could cause a slow powder to fail to reach max pressure, or to peak erratically.

I made some special powder for some bench resters. It was a short cut 4198 with a moly lube instead of graphite. I called it 4196.
 
They would probably use a faster powder to match the lighter bullets they tend to use.

A light bullet has less inertia, so starts to move sooner and faster than a slow bullet. This could cause a slow powder to fail to reach max pressure, or to peak erratically.

I made some special powder for some bench resters. It was a short cut 4198 with a moly lube instead of graphite. I called it 4196.

With a moly lubed powder and moly lubed bullets, the little guys would just squirt right out. Probably no muzzle blast at all. Sort of a wet fart.
 
I have downloaded an app for my iphone to measure sound levels. I don't know if it cam measure a gunshot. If it does, I will record both velocity and sound level for each increment in powder charge for the 60 rounds I made to test fast and slow powders, light and heavy bullets in 18" and 24" barrels.

I wanted to be able to measure and quantify the muzzle blast. For $5.00 I bought an app for my iphone - SPLnFFT, that measures noise.

I don't know how well it will measure a short load noise, like a gunshot, but I will soon find out.

So far I have only tested it with a 22 revolver (80db) and a 45ACP pistol (84db).

I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but if it will tell me more or less loud than another gun, that will help.

.

I bet there's data out there especially down south where suppressors are legal in many states. I've seen some pretty expensive DB meters being used by some social media personalities. I believe Mr. Gunsngear has one. It may be possible to find data collected by someone with a good meter to compare with your own readings. It may not be a NASA quality science experiment, more Bill Nye the science guy talking about climate change (well maybe not that much BS) but if it shows a tangible difference then it should be good enough for this crowd.
 
With a moly lubed powder and moly lubed bullets, the little guys would just squirt right out. Probably no muzzle blast at all. Sort of a wet fart.

and in the words of Larry, "Now that's funny right there I don't care who you are. That there is funny."

Yeash, something like a shart. Umm, that's just not a great visual.
 
as to the cellphone being used to measure sound pressure, I'm pretty sure it won't work without some significant preparation. A gunblast is going to be way over any sort of pressure limitations in that sort of hardware. Pretty much anything over 100dB is going to max it out. It is possible that if one reduced the blast pressure by somehow insulating the phone microphone in a consistently reliable manner (distance plus some soundproofing reduction) then maybe a dB meter app would work to show a qualitative value. It would be an interesting project.
 
Sorry....

This all sounds like Feebus n ferb imitates Wile e Coyote to me.

Experimenting on pipe bombs right beside your face. Complaining ice cream is cold, suing McDonald's because coffee is hot and you got scalded.

Firearms make noise, there is muzzle blast and flash.

Some of these ideas, directly contradict two basic rules in reloading. First, only have one powder on the bench at a time, so you dont use pistol powder in rifles. Second, dont blow your face off.
 
So, how much pressure does it take to force a bullet through a barrel? I don't think you want the muzzle pressure to ever get lower than that level, or your bullet will be slowing down rapidly even before it leaves the barrel. Actually, I want my bullets accelerating for the full length of the barrel, as almost all of them do. That's why longer barrels tend to be faster than short ones. If you're not careful, you may find your bullet popping out of the end of the barrel with the sound of a champagne cork, and then falling to the ground like... well .... a champagne cork. :rolleyes:


well I'm thinking that you don't drink a lot of bubbly, from experience I can tell you that the cork if not controlled is moving at a fair bit of speed, I have yet to set up my chronograph but I'll conduct an experiment on bot room temperature and cold bubbly (not real Champagne unless it comes from the Champagne region of France) to see which temperature has a lower velocity...

I hope my wife understands when I use up all of her bubbly... its an experiment for the guys at CGN..... :)
 
as to the cellphone being used to measure sound pressure, I'm pretty sure it won't work without some significant preparation. A gunblast is going to be way over any sort of pressure limitations in that sort of hardware. Pretty much anything over 100dB is going to max it out. It is possible that if one reduced the blast pressure by somehow insulating the phone microphone in a consistently reliable manner (distance plus some soundproofing reduction) then maybe a dB meter app would work to show a qualitative value. It would be an interesting project.

As far as I'm concerned, muzzle blast really has 3 components. These are muzzle flash, the sound given off and the pressure wave or concussion involved. Obviously these 3 components of muzzle blast typically moved together but perhaps not entirely so. For example, it seems like a powder with certain types of flash suppressants could still give a pretty healthy bang and a lot of pressure concussion - without necessarily creating a huge fireball.

if you poke around the web you will find a bunch of references to theories of what causes excessive muzzle blast. The obvious factor is having a high muzzle exit pressure because the gases in the barrel hadn't fully expanded - in the barrel - to reduce the pressure as the bullet left the bore.

This is obviously an important factor. in the old days, I used to hunt with a Valmet 412 double rifle in 30-06. Mornings and evenings - when the deer were moving - I had 2 full-power cartridges in the barrels. Around the mid-day when you were more likely to see a Partridge than a deer, I typically put a 32 auto round in one barrel – using an MCA sports cartridge adapter – and, of course, left a deer round in the other.

I can tell you that when I shot one of those 32 autos down that long 24-inch barrel, the sound given-off was a tiny fraction of what you would get from even a 22 long rifle. in fact, it was roughly the same sound as you get when you snap your fingers – but it still had enough accuracy and power to kill a Partridge cleanly. That experience pretty-well convinced me that if you can get the muzzle exit pressure down, the sound goes way down.

Beyond that factor, some people on the web say that loads that involve a lot of unburned powder also involve a lot of muzzle blast. The idea there is that the unburned, scorching hot powder hits the air and burns violently outside the gun with a big fireball and bang.

There are various posters who have said, repeatedly, in this thread that “guns are loud, get over it”. I don't have a big problem with that, but reloading is really all about getting the balance of things right. As far as I can tell, a load that features excessive muzzle blast is a load that wastes a lot of energy and make shooting your gun a pain in the butt. It can also make you pretty unpopular in a confined space - like a shooting house.

Of the three components of muzzle blast, obviously sound is the easiest to measure. As a matter of fact, I read somewhere that some early ballistician (P.O. Ackley?) used to record his gunshots - in order to figure-out how roughly powerful they were - in the days before chronographs were available.

This chart supposedly gives information on roughly how much sound is given off by different firearms.

https://www.silencercentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Silencer_Sound_Comparsion_chart.pdf

One of the posters has said to Ganderite that he doubts that an iPhone would be useful for measuring sound levels beyond about 100 decibels. Obviously, if he's right then a cell Phone with a sound measuring app wouldn't really be very useful for Ganderite’s purposes - unless it was located a pretty good distance away. I've already said that I wouldn't use my cell phone for that purpose - because I can imagine it would be possible to damage the internal microphone with the kind of sound given off by a nearby gunshot.

I bought a device that is specifically designed to measure sounds from the Source awhile back. I think it cost about $35 and is rated to measure sounds up to 130 dB. It seemed like a useful tool the time I used it. I was using it to evaluate subsonic loads at the time, so I don't really know what happens when you exceed its design limit.

An important point is that the decibel scale is a logarithmic scale. You can look it up on Wikipedia but the applicable energy level increases by a factor of 10 times as you move up 10 points on the decibel scale. That means that a sound that is at the 130 decibel level doesn't involve 30% more sound energy than a sound at 100 dB, but rather 1000 times more.
 
All I am talking about is the noise resolution of a handheld consumer phone. I don't really care where the noise is being sourced. I don't know if there has been any testing done side by side with a REAL sound dB meter but as an example I know of one test of using about 6 or 7 so-called 'light meters' for photography and comparing the results with two different lab certified and calibrated meters. All the add on light meters failed miserably. All 6 or 7 tested were totally useless.

Now, while sound and light are two very different things, I will go out on a limb here and state that I doubt ANY handheld cellular phone of any type will be useful at measuring moderate to high level sound pressure. At best it might give a qualitative measurement within a certain dB range but will NOT be useful for a quantitative repeatible measurement. In particular, at a certain level above 100dB it will either not be recorded at all, and or it will saturate the detector, and or the detection circuit, and or the detection software. If you want or need these kinds of measurements there are devices available which will measure such. They will NOT be a cheap cellphone. Nor will it be a cheap dB meter from anywhere.

So if you can get the sound level down to a point where the cellphone detector, circuit and software (which is already massaging the crap out of the info coming from the circuit) have a chance at reading a relative reading and repeat such until you build up a significant number of data points, you MIGHT be able to compare such to a similar number of repeated different loads, powders and bullets in that particular rifle under the exact same conditions. It will not give you a number you can use as such other than to say in general this combination is louder than that combination, etc.

Additional -> As to damaging your phone, I doubt it. I have mine in my pocket while I am shooting, about the same distance from the muzzle as are my ears. It gets the full meal deal every time I pull the trigger. I also have an older one controlling my Labradar. It gets to sit about a half meter closer. Then there is my iPad showing me video of where the POI is. It is beside the Labradar phone. Now I'm not saying it doesn't damage the audio detector but I and the people I speak with on the phone haven't noticed yet after many thousands of .223, .308, 6.5CM, 300WM going off within a metre or so.
 
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Just got back from the range. Did not set up the Chrony and do the test of fast vs slow powders.

I tested some cheap plated 150 gr bullets in my 308Brit. These are very mild loads, and I ran my cell phone sound meter.

I wrapped some pillow stuffing around the mic end of the phone and then placed the unit in a small sandwich bag. I was trying to attenuate the sound level a bit, so the unit just does not max out on every shot.

I downloaded several different apps, and find Db meter to be the most appropriate. It captures the peak sound and then re-sets for the next shot with 2 pushes of a button.

Ir was recording 108db to 112 db for some 223 shots.

When I do the velocity testing with fast and slow powders, long and short barrels I will run it and see if I get different levels of sound. The numbers will not be accurate, but they might show relative differences.
 
Just got back from the range. Did not set up the Chrony and do the test of fast vs slow powders.

I tested some cheap plated 150 gr bullets in my 308Brit. These are very mild loads, and I ran my cell phone sound meter.

I wrapped some pillow stuffing around the mic end of the phone and then placed the unit in a small sandwich bag. I was trying to attenuate the sound level a bit, so the unit just does not max out on every shot.

I downloaded several different apps, and find Db meter to be the most appropriate. It captures the peak sound and then re-sets for the next shot with 2 pushes of a button.

Ir was recording 108db to 112 db for some 223 shots.

When I do the velocity testing with fast and slow powders, long and short barrels I will run it and see if I get different levels of sound. The numbers will not be accurate, but they might show relative differences.

For what it's worth, there's something called the inverse square sound attenuation law

According to the inverse square law, it can be shown that for each doubling of distance from a point source, the sound pressure level decreases by approximately 6 dB. I suppose that means that you could set up your cell phone at some known distance and get a sound reading that would then tell you something to the effect that at half that distance the actual sound would have been 6dB higher and at a quarter the distance the sound would have been 12dB higher, etc
 
For what it's worth, there's something called the inverse square sound attenuation law

According to the inverse square law, it can be shown that for each doubling of distance from a point source, the sound pressure level decreases by approximately 6 dB. I suppose that means that you could set up your cell phone at some known distance and get a sound reading that would then tell you something to the effect that at half that distance the actual sound would have been 6dB higher and at a quarter the distance the sound would have been 12dB higher, etc

How can you know so much about sound and so little about powder, barrels and velocity?

Yes, sound level drops with distance, but unless I have a helper, the phone must be at my side.
 
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