Faster than expected 45acp

CanuckWR

CanuckWR

CGN frequent flyer
Rating - 98.9%
85   1   1
Location
In the mountains of western Alberta.
Ok, had some fun at the range and discovered my norc 1911a1 is running potentially hotter than expected. I made a new load with 5.9gr Universal clays under a Berry's 200gr cmjhp plated bullet, win large pistol primers and a OAL of about 1.13" which is a touch shorter than spec but it feeds better in my norc. According to hodgdon (whom I find reliable) it should be in the 900fps ballpark, HOWEVER after sending about 40 over the chrony today I saw an average of 1160fps. Weather was ok, 3C and about 3300ft elevation maybe 40% humidity. Yes I do check my powder charge periodically while loading with a variation of 5.7gr to 6.0gr. I have not seen any pressure signs, primers are not at all flattened, cases not deformed or cracked. I was running several other rifles over the chrony, my 300wm load still does 3130fps, 45/70 still is at 1800fps, sks at approx 2400fps, 338 lapua mag at 2700fps....

So... Any ideas? It doesnt seem right?? Am I cracked out???
 
Load down 1 full grain at least, and chrony from their STARTING load and work up to the power factor you need.

Clays is known to blow things up. It is a shotgun powder and is extremely fast burning (pressure spikes)

About the only saving grace is the room in a .45 casing.

You need to work up a load for YOUR gun. 2 Identical guns will chrony different even with the same reloads running through them because of barrel rifling tightness, differences in recoil springs etc.

This is one area where starting low pays dividends.
 
I haven't reloaded for 45 before, but here's a thought. Are you using cast bullet data or jacketed?? IIRC you're supposed to use cast bullet data or the low side of jacketed data for plated bullets.
 
Velocity 30% over what it should be is a real indication that you have to sit down and reevaluate what you are doing. If your chrony is accurate I am surprised something didn't come loose.
 
Got Juice? said:
Load down 1 full grain at least, and chrony from their STARTING load and work up to the power factor you need.

Clays is known to blow things up. It is a shotgun powder and is extremely fast burning (pressure spikes)

About the only saving grace is the room in a .45 casing.

You need to work up a load for YOUR gun. 2 Identical guns will chrony different even with the same reloads running through them because of barrel rifling tightness, differences in recoil springs etc.

This is one area where starting low pays dividends.
Click to expand...

Clays is faster than Universal, and I am under max load, 6.3gr for cast 200gr and 6.2gr for 200gr jacketed on hodgdon site. This is made for the only 45 I own and I worked up but finally chronied it today (I went by feel and accuracy). Like I said, NO pressure issues whatsoever, I don't usually get close to max loads...
 
Are you sure you used Universal Clays and NOT Clays? (Max listed load for Clays is 4.3 grains)

If you used 5.9 grains of Clays I would expect you to see the velocities you posted albeit with chamber pressures that would be off the chart.
 
CanuckWR said:
On this note has anyone every had a chrony misbehave? I realize that is should be popping primers, or perhaps even flattening them slightly?
Click to expand...

Not usually at the low pressures the 45 ACP is designed for. Sometimes the first indication you are over-pressure is when the gun comes apart.

Yes, some chronographs are notorious for misreading velocity. I have had a bit of grit prevent mine from opening fully which skewed the results big-time. Also when the sun is at an angle early in the morning or late in the afternoon weird readings can result.
 
i'd put a couple of factory rounds over the screens just to see if it's accurate,and if it is, i'd CERTAINLY back that load off- you're going to have a slide come off, or a cracked frame if the gun doesn't completely come apart- i normally run a 200 for about 900 using 6.2 of 231- that load is RIGHT AT THE TOP of the "safe spectrum"- to run at 1160 must mean you're running like DOUBLE pressures ie 9mm pressures in a 45- 38k or so in a gun that designed for 18-21k- something's going to blow for sure- f it's not damaged already- don't know if i'd even fire it anymore without having a smith check it out for stress fractures, esp around the back of the barrel, the link of the slide stop, and the frame
 
CanuckWR said:
HOWEVER after sending about 40 over the chrony today I saw an average of 1160fps.
Click to expand...

Holy crap. Are you sure the chrony is accurate? The temperature outside or perhaps the muzzle blast (move the chrony further away) might be screwing it up?

In the Norc 1911, your ejected brass must be flying a good 20 feet or more at that kind of load. That would allow you to kill two birds with one shot! *kidding*

In all seriousness, I'm not familiar with your recipe. But if it's within specs in our reloading manuals, then there is some other problem going on. Like someone else said, perhaps bullet setback upon chambering. Personally, I question the accuracy of your chrony... just saying I would check that first before panicking, especially if the load didn't seem especially huge and set you nearly down upon your arse.
 
After pulling a handful of rounds apart I am positive that its not an overload condition. Even the brass isnt going a ridiculous distance, no more than usual actually. I use a firm but reasonable taper crimp so I am not worried about the bullet being forced into the case, as I can run a few rounds through by hand without any incident or OAL changing.

I was a little concerned, but all signs are pointing toward the chrony...

Time to test it tomorrow.
 
CanuckWR said:
Ok, had some fun at the range and discovered my norc 1911a1 is running potentially hotter than expected. I made a new load with 5.9gr Universal clays under a Berry's 200gr cmjhp plated bullet, win large pistol primers and a OAL of about 1.13" which is a touch shorter than spec but it feeds better in my norc. According to hodgdon (whom I find reliable) it should be in the 900fps ballpark, HOWEVER after sending about 40 over the chrony today I saw an average of 1160fps. Weather was ok, 3C and about 3300ft elevation maybe 40% humidity. Yes I do check my powder charge periodically while loading with a variation of 5.7gr to 6.0gr. I have not seen any pressure signs, primers are not at all flattened, cases not deformed or cracked. I was running several other rifles over the chrony, my 300wm load still does 3130fps, 45/70 still is at 1800fps, sks at approx 2400fps, 338 lapua mag at 2700fps....

So... Any ideas? It doesnt seem right?? Am I cracked out???
Click to expand...
I would dare say that 0.060" shorter than the minimum OAL is more than "a touch" shorter.

Here is a pic of 3 cartridges.
The first one on the left is seated at 1.13" which is your seating depth.
The second one is seated at 1.195" which is the seating depth I use when loading W231.
I will explain why further down.
The minimum seating depth given in the Lee Modern Reloading 2nd edition manual is 1.190"
The 3rd one is seated at 1.260" which is the seating depth I use when using Vhitavuori N320.
This is once again the seating depth given in the Lee Modern Reloading 2nd edition manual for this powder.
Both the 1.195" and 1.260" rounds feed and cycle reliably in my pistol.

DSCN0692.jpg


You are using the maximum load data but you are 0.060" under minimum published length so your pressure levels are in that cartridge are most likely unsafe.

The maximum OAL for .45 ACP is 1.275" so if 1.190" isn't feeding reliably for you then the problem is with the gun or magazines and should be corrected instead of the OAL of the round.

Here is an easy way to figure out what is the minimum OAL you should be loading a particular bullet to.

Take a bullet and colour it with a black marker.
Then take a razor blade or other straight edged object and scrape the bullet to remove the black marker from the base as you see in the picture below.
This will give you the maximum seating depth for this particular model of bullet.

DSCN0677-1-1.jpg


In the picture below you will see that this particular bullet measures 0.619" on the micrometer in the upper left of the picture and has a base length of 0.322" as seen on the vernier caliper on the lower left of the picture.

If you take my bullet length for example 0.619"- 0.322"= 0.297"

The maximum case length for .45 ACP is 0.898" so if you add the 0.297" nose length to the case length the minimum OAL for this particular bullet is 1.195"
DSCN0655.jpg


I hope this helps.
 
the problem is he used FMJ loading data when he should have have used cast data. a Barry bullet is a plated bullet and there fore cast data should be used. To many people think that plated means jacketed. this is not the case! Looking at Hodgdon he is lucky he didn't blow up his gun. They give 4.3 grains as the maximum load for a 200 GR. CAST LSWC. He is loaded almost 50% over!
 
Walter Hornby said:
the problem is he used FMJ loading data when he should have have used cast data. a Barry bullet is a plated bullet and there fore cast data should be used. To many people think that plated means jacketed. this is not the case! Looking at Hodgdon he is lucky he didn't blow up his gun. They give 4.3 grains as the maximum load for a 200 GR. CAST LSWC. He is loaded almost 50% over!
Click to expand...

According to berrys he should use low to mid range jacketed data.
http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx
I use Cam-Pro plated bullets which are swaged from a fairly hard alloy.
I use full power jacketed data with no problems.
 
Walter Hornby said:
the problem is he used FMJ loading data when he should have have used cast data. a Barry bullet is a plated bullet and there fore cast data should be used. To many people think that plated means jacketed. this is not the case! Looking at Hodgdon he is lucky he didn't blow up his gun. They give 4.3 grains as the maximum load for a 200 GR. CAST LSWC. He is loaded almost 50% over!
Click to expand...

Here is the data direct from hodgdon's site. Show me where I am over for universal at 5.9gr...

200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.225" 5.8 889 13,900 CUP 6.3 962 16,800 CUP

here is the jacketed data for my load

200 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.155" 5.8 889 15,100 CUP 6.2 949 17,200 CUP

Again, LOWER END of load data for both...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom