FBI is switching back to 9mm handguns.

TDC said:
Check the stats on one shot stops and average rounds fired in cases of terminal performance. The average is 3 rounds regardless of calibre(between the two being discussed). Shot placement trumps all. Ever wonder why nearly all SF units use 9mm pistols and almost none use .45ACP pistols?? More rounds means more fight.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

TDC
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Wait are you suggesting handguns are not as good as longuns when it comes to "stopping power?" Nonsense.

But I swear my 45 ACP outdid the 50BMG rounds at stopping Grizzly bears that were on the moon.
 
Maybe we should be call the FBI and let them know that we have it all figured out...
I am sure the FBI lab Geeks cannot wait to hear TDC's ballistics expertise.

:cool:
 
owlowl said:
This is exactly why the us army switched from pathetic 30-06 to weak and mild .308 right to all mighty 5.56. Instant kill ammo, no compromise.

By the way, last time I've checked, Hague Convention still stands - an army cannot use expanding ammo. So you are looking at ball 9mm vs ball 45acp. You can dig up several football fields with multiple rocket launchers, but 9mm hollow point is totally illegal.
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Not for police forces , The Hague does not apply. Hollowpoints are the norm. - dan
 
The 9mm is an easier handgun to shoot for those with no interest in practice: less recoil, more rounds to miss with and cheaper to shoot. The FBI can load a Glock 9mm extended magazine for the same price as a .45ACP 10round magazine. Think about it: as an electrician if it was only a job you wouldn't leave work, come home and then go to electrical tools courses and read up on electrical equipment at home; a lot of FBI see it as just a job, so they don't come home to go to the firing range or practice dry firing at home. For those that see their job as a profession that requires knowledge of the tools used, they practice: just not enough of them.

mrgoat said:
The part of the FBI's reasoning that folks here appear to be skimming over is that 70 to 80% of shots fired by officers miss the intended target.
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Mostly due to lack of practice and stress control. It is my opinion that a 9mm won't help with that. :yingyang:

TDC said:
Revolvers are a stupid stupid idea, they became obsolete about 75 years ago.
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Heck, I'd take a .38 special over a 9mm any day. I'd rather stake my life on what I trained with than what some politician FBI chief wanted to shove down my throat.

By the way, with the advent of computers every type of pencil, pen and marker became obsolete 20 years ago... funny they are still everywhere. :HR:
 
Most FBI folks were lawyers and accountants before they signed up...

They seem to receive a higher level of firearms training than your typical city or state police force, but with notable exception of their SWAT units, they're generally not "gun people" nor are they particularly adept at dynamic field work in general, Investigation is their forte.
 
870P said:
Most FBI folks were lawyers and accountants before they signed up...

They seem to receive a higher level of firearms training than your typical city or state police force, but with notable exception of their SWAT units, they're generally not "gun people" nor are they particularly adept at dynamic field work in general, Investigation is their forte.
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Their job, like our police forces, isn't primarily shooting people. We put a great deal of emphasis on shooting activities because we are interested in firearms. Lots of folks could care less about the shooting sports or any kind of shooting. Same with law enforcement folks I suspect.

Take Care

Bob
 
I wonder if they are actually going to get rid of all the current guns in .40, and replace them all right away?

Or will they just phase them in slowly as new people get hired. And let all the agents who already carry a .40 just keep carrying it until retirement?
 
I think .45ACP is pointless as a duty round for Law Enforcement. It doesn't have the speed for the best barrier penetration. 9MM and .40 does, but 9mm has more capacity, and is cheaper. Seems like a logical choice to go with 9mm. After that shot placement is key no matter what round your using.
 
owlowl said:
Somehow I doubt that any hollow point is good for piercing barriers.
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You may have a point there. Guess they would use hollow points. I was thinking about vehicles etc...


This video came to mind. In which he uses hollow points that go straight through the frying pan.

[youtube]i22-nMxnHrE[/youtube]
 
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owlowl said:
Somehow I doubt that any hollow point is good for piercing barriers.
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Controlled expansion, lookup Speer Golddot hallow point one of the more popular duty rounds used by many police forces (including Canadian ones)
Aniest said:
The 9mm is an easier handgun to shoot for those with no interest in practice: less recoil, more rounds to miss with and cheaper to shoot. The FBI can load a Glock 9mm extended magazine for the same price as a .45ACP 10round magazine. Think about it: as an electrician if it was only a job you wouldn't leave work, come home and then go to electrical tools courses and read up on electrical equipment at home; a lot of FBI see it as just a job, so they don't come home to go to the firing range or practice dry firing at home. For those that see their job as a profession that requires knowledge of the tools used, they practice: just not enough of them.
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The use of force is only one area of the job. for a basic regular constable it is not something they do everyday. Knowing the law is more important. For those ERT/SWAT, they do train with use of firearm much more frequently because it is used more often.
Aniest said:
Heck, I'd take a .38 special over a 9mm any day. I'd rather stake my life on what I trained with than what some politician FBI chief wanted to shove down my throat.

By the way, with the advent of computers every type of pencil, pen and marker became obsolete 20 years ago... funny they are still everywhere. :HR:
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Revolver has its place, it is just not the best tool when autoloader came out. 38SPL has less energy than 9mm, a typical 38spl revolver is a six shooter, a typical 9mm autoloader since 80s is 15 rounds magazine capacity. Assuming both have the same penetration, expansion, energy transfer (which they don't) 9mm auto loader still wins.
If you want to pull the 357magnum card, compared it to 357SIG (it's literally a 9mm in a 40S&W bottlenecked case) and the 357SIG still beats the 357magnum in a standard barrel length gun. (I'm talking 4" barrel for 357magnum since that's the most common barrel length for duty revolver)
 
Funny how everyone TDC said, and has been saying (along with a bunch of us) for years, is exactly what the FBI is saying too, and has been saying for a long time too.
Ease of use, cost of ammo, wear and tear on guns are among the prime reasons for the change, but there are lots of others. I would expect to see the change happen rather rapidly, as it did on previous changes.
 
The circle of life:

Step One - reduce cost, increase department scores during test shoots, make operators happy with low recoil, lead a re-arming program accruing new contracts, write up a white paper about good progress archived.

Step Two - get yourself in a fight 8 on 2 and get decimated.

Step Three - create a commission, write up an alarming report on how ineffective sidearms are, lead a re-arming program accruing new contracts
 
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