FBI is switching back to 9mm handguns.
- Thread starter Dexter Morgan
- Start date
Armored Metal
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- The People's Republik of Kébekistan
Isn't it like that in all walks of life?
Probably as good a method as any. The kid in the street car in Toronto didn't survive the .40cal. Well he had to be tazed after he was shot so maybe it isn't as effective as some think.
Take Care
Bob
Here's the link to the best defensive ammo from AR15.com:
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
All recommended ammo meets the FBI criteria.
9mm
Barnes XPB 115gr HP (35515) such as loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX09115)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Federal HST 124gr JHP +P (P9HST3)
And why the FBI is moving back to 9MM:
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I am gong to go out on the limb here as suggest none of the rounds tested expand while going through an IPSC or IDPA target. If not I'll stick to LTC booltis.
Maybe one of the more knowledgeable officers can confirm this.
Take Care
Bob
Maybe one of the more knowledgeable officers can confirm this.
Take Care
Bob
I see what looks like larger temporary wound cavities, deeper penetration, and larger expansion from the .45. Albeit not much, but still. From an organization's point of view I can see the attraction of the 9 though, solves a few problems. - dan
If the Famous But Incompetant have decided they want to go to the 9MM cartridge then any testing they do and conclusions they reach will certainly support the move to the 9MM. I know this might offend some on this thread but it is true. I have seen the decision process in the private sector work the sane way and the FBI are not the only government organization that follows this process.
The .40 wound channel appears to be bigger than the 9MM as well but that might not mean much when it comes to real world killing power. Dead is dead. You can't be more dead.
Take Care
Bob
this whole caliber debate is really silly imho.
Here is a hydrostatic shock explanation for dummies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6a3POtFMaA
The stronger the shock, the faster the body shuts down, simple as pie. Same as crashing against a hydro pole at 20 km/h vs 200 km/h.
The .40 is bigger yes, the hydrostatic shock that causes will be bigger than 9? Yes; Will this kill or stop faster? not if you shoot them in the leg. But you get the idea.
I can't believe this debate has gone on for days. Who cares what the FBI shoots!!! If you like one caliber go buy it and shoot it until you are happy.
This ford vs chevy thing is just silly.
Here is a hydrostatic shock explanation for dummies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6a3POtFMaA
The stronger the shock, the faster the body shuts down, simple as pie. Same as crashing against a hydro pole at 20 km/h vs 200 km/h.
The .40 is bigger yes, the hydrostatic shock that causes will be bigger than 9? Yes; Will this kill or stop faster? not if you shoot them in the leg. But you get the idea.
I can't believe this debate has gone on for days. Who cares what the FBI shoots!!! If you like one caliber go buy it and shoot it until you are happy.
This ford vs chevy thing is just silly.
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But IPSC, invented in part by Col. Jeff Cooper, who hated the 9mm, and glorified the .45 ACP and 1911, gives scoring advantage to the .45 and .40 calibers with the Minor and Major scoring system. The inventors believed that although the 9mm was easier to shoot, the .45 was the more effective round and should receive a scoring advantage.
Or recoil affects performance and lower recoil means improved results hence you pay more for your misses using the 9MM. Not sure what you mean by effective. The FBI reports I have seen indicate the .45acp was quite low on the food chain when it came to one shot stops. IIRC around 65% for the .45acp. The .357Mag always seemed to appear at the top or near the top. Somebody here will bother to look it up.
Avenida - exactly, you just cut to the chase quicker. A man with words.
Bob
I would think the prevalence of body armor available to civilians in the States might also factor into this, though even 9mm isn't small enough to poke through in the tests I've seen on youtube. Seems like the .22 calibers are needed for that.
Hydrostatic shock has no effect when using handgun ammunition. It is a factor with rifle ammunition. Handgun ammunition has insufficient velocity.
Here is the definitive study on handgun terminal ballistics, read it and you will understand what I'm saying, or don't and believe all the BS you want.
U. S. Department of Justice
Federal Bureau of Investigation
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
"The tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms. The first, or crush mechanism is the hole the bullet makes passing through the tissue. The second, or stretch mechanism is the temporary cavity formed by the tissues being driven outward in a radial direction away from the path of the bullet. Of the two, the crush mechanism, the result of penetration and permanent cavity, is the only handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue. To cause significant injuries to a structure within the body using a handgun, the bullet must penetrate the structure. Temporary cavity has no reliable wounding effect in elastic body tissues. Temporary cavitation is nothing more than a stretch of the tissues, generally no larger than 10 times the bullet diameter (in handgun calibers), and elastic tissues sustain little, if any, residual damage."
"Physiologically, a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed."
"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."
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I can't believe someone referenced hydrostatic shock.
Nobody start talking about Israeli shooting methods or this thread will go stupid-nuclear.
Nobody start talking about Israeli shooting methods or this thread will go stupid-nuclear.
I thought it was pretty much on it's way a dozen or so posts ago. Christ you would think we had blood running in the streets with all this interest. If the bullets don't expand immediately when they hit cardboard targets then does it matter?
Just boys with toys on a different plane.
Take Care
Bob
It's just as fast for me to draw and rack a round into the chamber as it is to carry a chambered round. Plus it is safer for me.
heavenIsAlie
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Abbotsford
you shoot too slow then
