few questions about Transit, Sorage and Shooting.

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Wabbacha

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Being my first post let me say Hello from Iowa.

Ok, so I'm new to Gun Laws in Canada, But not new to the gun world.

I'm coming up to take my Pal and Rpal in March, I'm an American Citizen now but i was born in Canada and after 20+ years being here we decided to move back home.

I being your typical Murician that you all hear and read about have many guns including Pistols, rifles, levers shotty's and scary black ones. I did call the Ontario CFO and did sell off all my "Prohibited" gun's, they were mainly EDC's and my dearly loved MP5a2 and MP5a2/22......god I'll miss them.

now that we cleared that up, the questions I have are these, For Transit, does your typical "Plano style" black plastic rifle or pistol tote constitute as safe storage when traveling and does it need to be pad locked? I'm sure trigger locks are also required? do Restricted fire arms need alternate means as well? Maybe a more secure Transit storage?

I'm already aware of the ATT, and I will have one with upon our move to bring my firearms into Canada.

Now for storage, I have a 40 gun Stack On Total Defense Safe can you leave Guns in it without trigger locks? or should they all be trigger locked as well? or maybe only the Restricted ones? can I have ammo and mags or loaded mags in it (not in the gun) as well? I also Have a Hornady Rapid safe (little night stand safe with Rfid locker) can I keep a pistol in this with loaded mag beside it inside the desk safe? will it need a trigger lock?

Now on to shooting, I understand you can only shoot restricted at a designated range....shame, But can I shoot my Non-restricted on my property? I have 150 acres North of Peterborough Ont. In the middle of the sticks, If I am able to would I get Grieved if I set up a shooting Bench and some steel at different yardages out to 500 yards or so, or would they then try to tell me its a shooting range? even if its for personal use only?

and to go along with this question, is there a limit that a child can or cannot shoot? I am under the impression that 12 is the age to hunt, which is ok as for my one daughter is now 12 and she's my hunting buddy, but I have 3 other children, 2 of which are much younger, all of which are fully experienced shooter's (well I lied my 14 year old she's kinda on the liberal side and hates guns, but I make her shoot once in awhile).
can the younger 2 target shoot? or must they wait till they are at least 12?

sorry for the long post and the questions, but even after numerous hours and days of reading Canadian gun laws its still so confusing, I was actually shocked that my MP5a2/22 was also Prohibited for its looks only, even tho it shares the same action found in many Umarex .22's like the colt ar15/22 which i believe is just restricted....

thanks from Iowa!
 
Wabbacha said:
Being my first post let me say Hello from Iowa.

Ok, so I'm new to Gun Laws in Canada, But not new to the gun world.

I'm coming up to take my Pal and Rpal in March, I'm an American Citizen now but i was born in Canada and after 20+ years being here we decided to move back home.

I being your typical Murician that you all hear and read about have many guns including Pistols, rifles, levers shotty's and scary black ones. I did call the Ontario CFO and did sell off all my "Prohibited" gun's, they were mainly EDC's and my dearly loved MP5a2 and MP5a2/22......god I'll miss them.

now that we cleared that up, the questions I have are these, For Transit, does your typical "Plano style" black plastic rifle or pistol tote constitute as safe storage when traveling and does it need to be pad locked? I'm sure trigger locks are also required? do Restricted fire arms need alternate means as well? Maybe a more secure Transit storage?

I'm already aware of the ATT, and I will have one with upon our move to bring my firearms into Canada.

Now for storage, I have a 40 gun Stack On Total Defense Safe can you leave Guns in it without trigger locks? or should they all be trigger locked as well? or maybe only the Restricted ones? can I have ammo and mags or loaded mags in it (not in the gun) as well? I also Have a Hornady Rapid safe (little night stand safe with Rfid locker) can I keep a pistol in this with loaded mag beside it inside the desk safe? will it need a trigger lock?

Now on to shooting, I understand you can only shoot restricted at a designated range....shame, But can I shoot my Non-restricted on my property? I have 150 acres North of Peterborough Ont. In the middle of the sticks, If I am able to would I get Grieved if I set up a shooting Bench and some steel at different yardages out to 500 yards or so, or would they then try to tell me its a shooting range? even if its for personal use only?

and to go along with this question, is there a limit that a child can or cannot shoot? I am under the impression that 12 is the age to hunt, which is ok as for my one daughter is now 12 and she's my hunting buddy, but I have 3 other children, 2 of which are much younger, all of which are fully experienced shooter's (well I lied my 14 year old she's kinda on the liberal side and hates guns, but I make her shoot once in awhile).
can the younger 2 target shoot? or must they wait till they are at least 12?

sorry for the long post and the questions, but even after numerous hours and days of reading Canadian gun laws its still so confusing, I was actually shocked that my MP5a2/22 was also Prohibited for its looks only, even tho it shares the same action found in many Umarex .22's like the colt ar15/22 which i believe is just restricted....

thanks from Iowa!
Click to expand...

Welcome aboard!

I'm not an expert on Transit, Storage and Shooting but I'm sure someone will be along shortly.
 
Thanks mate, I hate to sound so Newbish it's just that your laws are very hard to decipher and very much different then ours, I don't want to become a Felon for something that is really a matter of apple's vs oranges.
 
Welcome. Big post, lots of questions. As an ex PAL instructor I'll get the ball rolling.
To start with, just as in the US we have federal firearms laws and provincial (state) laws, also municipal/ city ordinances. Federal laws are universal across the country, the others vary by location so you need to define your place of residence.
Federal laws regarding transport say non restricted firearms don't require a locked case or trigger lock for transport or storage. Restricted firearms require both. Must have no ammunition in the gun of course in either case unless actively engaged in hunting or target shooting.
Your gun safe is more than adequate and legal for storage of all your guns, no trigger locks required in there. Actually a locked room or even in a locked house or locked vehicle is legal safe storage if the guns are out of sight and not readily accessible. All firearms in storage, in a house, business, vehicle, etc must be empty. There are a few narrow exceptions to these storage conditions specifically for bona fide farmers in rural locations for the protection of livestock.
Most of your other questions are related more to provincial or municipal regs and not being familiar with Ontario I'll leave that to others.
 
thanks ashcroft, would I be safe to assume, your typical dept. store plastic gun cases will be adequate? I think these days they all come with provisions to add a pad lock, I will be transporting all of my firearms in them if adequate maybe 2 per rifle case and 2-3 per pistol case if allowed.
 
Welcome.

What Ashcroft said, and...

For shooting nr on your property, I'd advise to first check local by-laws regarding that; some municipalities have ordinances to control or prohibit.

I'd suggest using your Google-Fu to find the RCMP firearms web pages for info and links to requirements and what is legal - there are also pdfs available for download. You might pay special attention to overall length, fireable lenvth (folding stocks), and barrel lengths (handguns) to ensure what you are bringing is legal. Also, ensure your magazines are pinned (ie: pop-riveted) to acceptable capacities, as required. Would really ruin your day/year/shooting endeavours, to get slapped with an 'import/possess prohibited item' charge upon entry...

While the info & pamphlets on the RCMP web pages is not law, there are links to the actual laws.

Hope that helps.
 
Thanks sea monkey, I'm gonna go ahead and contact the local authorities in the area I'm moving this week to make sure its all on the up and up, as for barrel and stock lengths and cap. limits I have that covered with the loss of 14 dear firearms......RIP my Freedoms that I have come to know and love.
 
The rules for discharge of firearms has been highlighted as locally dependant. Shooting in some areas is considered hunting, regardless of what the firearm is pointed at. Secondly, the word range takes on a very narrow legal definition as per The Firearms Act's regulations. You want to avoid calling your shooting place a range. As has been suggested, contact the rural municipality for the letter and text around discharge of firearms. That will guide your next decisions.

Crown Land is public land, however that doesn't mean you can just ignore the safety principles and blast away. https://www.ontario.ca/page/crown-land-use-policy-atlas Have a look around and see what is available in your area.
 
Your gun cases are fine for transport, soft cases ok as well for rifles and shotguns. There are provincial laws regarding firearms possession, discharge and transport that generally fall under game/hunting regulations and some counties/municipalities have bylaws regarding transport and discharge. Generally, the denser the population the more local legislation you will need to deal with. I agree, it's a confusing mess. On the other hand, in the US there are very few federal laws pertaining to possession, storage and transport but every individual state has it's own and there is no consistency from state to state, travel with or use of firearms there can easily place you in trouble in another state for doing something that was fine in your home state. Some states are much stricter than our Canadian laws. J.
 
Storage laws differ when dealing with restricted, versus non-restricted. Just like transport.

Here's the RCMP site for quick reference, however these are not verbatim representations of the actual law.

And here is the government website with the long-winded, actual firearms act.

What Ashcroft said is correct, minus the part about a locked house being adequate safe storage. You cannot have a gun lying around that is able to be fired. In the case of non-restricted firearms, the bolt must be removed, or it must have a locking device on it. Restricted don't need a locking device (Trigger/cable lock) if they're locked in a safe/purpose built room intended to store firearms. Your house likely wasn't built with the sole intention of firearms storage.
 
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Thanks everyone I really appreciate the help, I agree we have some wonky laws as well, and no 2 states seem to follow another, I actually carry a reciprocity map in my wallet so I'm not to break a law in another state while Carrying, and I carry daily (which I'll greatly miss) My biggest concern atm is if My children (under 12) can shoot legally not hunt but shoot, I know it may seem silly but that could lead to a deal breaker for me if not. The 150 acres has been in my family for over 100 years and it ain't going anywhere, my last resort could be just move up to Michigan enjoy even more freedoms then the state I'm in and visit my family more often with a much shorter jaunt.
 
Wabbacha said:
Thanks everyone I really appreciate the help, I agree we have some wonky laws as well, and no 2 states seem to follow another, I actually carry a reciprocity map in my wallet so I'm not to break a law in another state while Carrying, and I carry daily (which I'll greatly miss) My biggest concern atm is if My children (under 12) can shoot legally not hunt but shoot, I know it may seem silly but that could lead to a deal breaker for me if not. The 150 acres has been in my family for over 100 years and it ain't going anywhere, my last resort could be just move up to Michigan enjoy even more freedoms then the state I'm in and visit my family more often with a much shorter jaunt.
Click to expand...

They definitely can. If you have a PAL, and they're under your direct supervision, they can legally shoot anywhere that shooting is legal.
 
This blog post just came up in my FB feed. It is written by a firearms lawyer, so it ought to be authoritative. (But I'm not paying, so it could be pure BS!)

plourdelaw.com/blog/2015/07/where-can-firearms-be-discharged-in-ontario.shtml
 
At 12 years of age they can take the necessary courses and apply for a minors POL. This will allow them to shoot without "immediate and direct" supervision. Up to that point they can shoot but someone with a (R)PAL must be supervising and able to "take over" should SHTF.
My two sons recently completed the course. One is 12 the other 15.
I was told by one of the instructors that, due to the recent changes in the POL/PAL licenses, a minors license entitles them to purchase firearms as long as an adult is present at the time of purchase. The same applies for ammo. I'm still not 100% convinced of the firearms purchasing part. The RCMP site says differently. I do know for sure that ammo can be bought by them though.
 
Welcome home!

Here is a 3 minute primer on Canadian Gun laws

The bulk of our Gun law comes a bill passed in 1995 called the Firearms act. The Firearms Act also amended the criminal code to give our gun laws the force of criminal law. Specifically, Part 3 of the criminal code sets out the requirements that all Canadians must comply with regards to firearms ownership. It sets out the requirement to have a license, register restricted and prohibited firearms, have authorizations to transport, and as well sets out prohibitions on certain acts ie pointing, concealing, loading, transferring to an unauthorized person, possession at an unauthorized place, etc, as well as the administrative functions of criminal just including what courts and police can do regarding seizures, warrants, and prohibition orders. The firearms act itself governs a variety of topics including the rules for issuance of licensing, requirements for registration, what specific individuals can and can't be authorized to own and what they can do with them. It also sets out the roles for import/export, businesses, as well as creates the bureaucratic framework for registration and records.

Also, both under the Criminal Code and the Firearms Act, there are dozens of sets of regulations that get into the knitty gritty, and this is where you will find the specific requirements for storage, transportation and display of firearms, the regulations for Authorizations to Transport, license regulations, etc.

There is a lot of ambiguity and uncertainty in our laws, as they were poorly written by politicians who lacked an understanding of complex public policy and systems design.
Our courts have been relied upon to make sense of the mess, and there are a few important court cases that define or clarify some of these provisions, but there are many issues that just haven't been in front of a judge yet.

----Primer Ends -----

So now some answers...
does your typical "Plano style" black plastic rifle or pistol tote constitute as safe storage when traveling and does it need to be pad locked?
1st, 'storage' and 'transportation' are not defined by law, but the regulations mentioned above seem to treat them as separate categories.
2nd, requirements for either storage or transportation are different based on classification of the firearm in question, and in the case of transport, the requirements are different if the firearm is unattended in the vehicle or not.

For the exact law, see the regs. http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/index.html

Trigger locks are generally not required for transporting non restricted firearms, except for an almost incomprehensible requirement that you need a trigger lock if your vehicle can't be locked and you are leaving it unattended in "remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting.

Trigger locks are always required for restricted and prohibited firearms, in addition to locked containers, of which your plano will suffice.

Storage: Non Restricted and Restricted firearms can be stored in your Stack On or your Hornady safes without the need for trigger locks. They must be unloaded. You can store ammo or charged magazines in those safes, but not on or near those safes, unless the ammo is locked separately, unless the room in which everything is stored has been specifically built for the storage of firearms that is kept securely locked. Easy peasy right?

Shooting. The criminal code and firearms act specify the rules for possessing firearms and loaded firearms, and the rules for transporting firearms to those authorized places. Whether or not you can shoot at those locations is typically governed by local by-laws, and what you can shoot at is typically government by provincial laws, usually in relation to wildlife.
In general, all firearms can be discharged anywhere that there is not an express prohibition on doing so. The firearms act prohibits possession of restricted or prohibited firearms outside of your house, without an ATT. Its an endless internet debate if you can shoot restricted on your own property. Its one of those issues that has never been in front of a judge. Your local by laws may not have any bans, or they may have bans on certain days or times of day. Provincial laws will regulate what you can hunt, what you can hunt with, and may in some cases prohibit target shooting in certain areas at certain times.

Shooting range. The law defines a shooting range as "a place that is designed or intended for the safe discharge, on a regular and structured basis, of firearms for the purpose of target practice or target shooting competitions," regardless of public or private use. http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-212/page-1.html#h-1
If you set up a bench and targets, you have built a range. Thousands of Canadians create ranges on their own property without being authorized under the firearms act. This is another issue that seems to have never been before a judge.

There is no age limit for people shooting under the supervision of a licensed individual. Minors licenses are available under certain circumstances for people 12-18 years old.
Hunting is regulated provincially, check the Ontario hunting regulations.

As for determining whats legal, use caution when dealing with local law enforcement as they rarely deal with legal firearms issues, and have been known to give bad advice to the detriment of the gun owners. In questions of classification, and legality, consult the law. If you can't make sense of it, ask questions here. If you can't get satisfaction here, check a lawyer, but in many cases only a judge will be able to say for sure. I lament the loss of your 14 firearms, and hope that you have not been told to get rid of something that you were actually allowed to keep.

I hope that helps. This is free legal advice offered over the internet so its worth what you paid for it. Good luck!
 
thanks man, you guys are very helpful, I figured as such with what you said but just wanted to cross my t's and dot the i's, I did check with multiple sources before I let go of the "prohibited" firearms, some had deep connections to me, very missed.

As a legal carrying responsible citizen I hate to break it to who's ever in charge of deeming such firearms "prohibited" in Canada, but the "shorties" as I see them called in the north, are not even practical carry guns (poor accuracy), yes many carry them but any experienced person that carries daily will tell you that a full sized handgun with a small grip or rounded butt is more practical as for it prints very little and has a Longer more accurate barrel, barrel length barely matters in carrying, Im sitting in my computer chair atm with a 5" 1911 shoved down my pants "appendix" and I barely feel it. and when i stand up and confront anyone, they haven't the slightest.....

but again I thank you all, take care and hope to be back home soon.
 
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