Few quick Q's about Swiss Arms and Accessories

[Zephram]

Hey all, a few questions to the knowledgeable on the awesome Swiss Arms rifles.

First, I think I have seen mention of a "Black Special" and a "Black Special Target". What is the difference between these models? I don't own one yet but would be really interested in picking one up, but they are not stocked anywhere near where I am located so I can't see them first hand and no one knows about them really. I'd want the non-restricted length barrel variant in black.

The second question is about accessorizing these rifles. They are older in design so they don't come with flat top rails etc, but I have seen that many owners outfit them onto the gun. What is required (and approx what cost) to fit a top rail (optics) and bottom rail (forward grip) to it? I once held a version with a quad rail and it was very front heavy. Generally I think a quad rail is too much rail for me, and although I enjoy the tactical look I think its a bit overkill.

Anyway any comments or advice definitely welcome. I'm getting the feeling the rifle is about $3500 new and then with taxes plus these rails (guessing $300+) the cost is easily going to break 4k without any mags or ammo.

Insert tears here.

 

[twyeh]

B&T foreend rail will run you in the 700s. Top rail you can choose a Kyle or B&T which will run you in the 200s.

If you like factory rails for scoping, just go with the target model. But I find the classic ones more attractive.

These Swiss guns are well worth the money in my opinion if you have the cash, top of then line and hand built with the highest standards. Don't call it a SG550 though which is prohibited, as they are not the same internally.

Hey all, a few questions to the knowledgeable on the awesome sg 550.

First, I think I have seen mention of a "Black Special" and a "Black Special Target". What is the difference between these models? I don't own one yet but would be really interested in picking one up, but they are not stocked anywhere near where I am located so I can't see them first hand and no one knows about them really. I'd want the non-restricted length barrel variant in black.

The second question is about accessorizing these rifles. They are older in design so they don't come with flat top rails etc, but I have seen that many owners outfit them onto the gun. What is required (and approx what cost) to fit a top rail (optics) and bottom rail (forward grip) to it? I once held a version with a quad rail and it was very front heavy. Generally I think a quad rail is too much rail for me, and although I enjoy the tactical look I think its a bit overkill.

Anyway any comments or advice definitely welcome. I'm getting the feeling the rifle is about $3500 new and then with taxes plus these rails (guessing $300+) the cost is easily going to break 4k without any mags or ammo.

Insert tears here.

 

[ghostie]

I think I have seen mention of a "Black Special" and a "Black Special Target". What is the difference between these models?

The target models have a rail welded to the upper receiver, rather than the diopter sights that the standard models have. On the standard models the diopter housing is welded to the upper receiver, and cannot be removed (without major surgery on the rifle). The diopter drum can be removed and some guys do this to try and get a scope mounted a bit lower. The presence of the non-removable rear sight, and no rail, present some challenges in mounting optics. This is what the target models are designed to address. The downside is that they have no sights! (go figure)

Because the barrel sits low in the receiver (under the gas tube) on a Swiss, and need to add a rail, plus clear the height of the rear sight.... the vertical distance between the line of sight of the optic and the line of sight of the barrel can be quite large. This can cause some problems... i.e., the gun is only really sighted in at one particular distance. I suppose, strictly speaking, this is true of all scoped firearms, but the greater the vertical distance between the optic and the barrel, the more the point of impact seems to change at different distances. I used to use the 3x ACOG compact with mine, but it was sitting way too high. So I use that optic on an AR now, and use the Swiss with the irons (which are very good), but - after trying a friend's Swiss Arms set-up recently - I am going to be going to a low mounted 1x red dot that pretty much co-witnesses with the irons. Good set up.

I put this thread together awhile ago, and some people found it interesting.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383058
It has some pictures that show how the rail is mounted. It fits into a dovetail in the front and tightens into a "dimple" on the diopter housing at the rear. I think the rails can be had for around $200. I bought mine (an unopened one) off the EE for $200 cash. Kind of pricey for a chunk of metal, but welcome to Swiss Arms land.


There is a bottom rail you can get which is not a full replacement for the handguard. I have never tried it, as I am not into vert grips on Swiss Arms guns, but I believe it just bolts on to the lower handguard.

 

[Roughneck12]

Is there enough meat on the plastic forgrips to bolt or screw on a rail?

 

[Scocou]

...
There is a bottom rail you can get which is not a full replacement for the handguard. I have never tried it, as I am not into vert grips on Swiss Arms guns, but I believe it just bolts on to the lower handguard.

^^^ What he said . You can also get rails that attach to the sides of the standard handguard.

Is there enough meat on the plastic forgrips to bolt or screw on a rail?

 

[Styrak]

Don't call it a SG550 though which is prohibited, as they are not the same internally.

Really.....
Can you elaborate? Obviously the trigger group/sears etc would be different because it's not full auto, but do you mean any of the main operating features/gas system, etc?

 

[F22_RaptoR]

Really.....
Can you elaborate? Obviously the trigger group/sears etc would be different because it's not full auto, but do you mean any of the main operating features/gas system, etc?

The Sig 550 was based off of the SIG 540, and the "Swiss Arms Sporter series" or whatever we get, is is based off of the 540 as well. The 540 (although not in production anymore) was non-restricted.

The ones we get are a little bit different in the spacing of the parts etc.... so they are not compatible with the Sig 550. Since the SIG 550 is prohib by name, the Swiss made a slightly different one for us.

The overall design/function principle is the same though.

 

[Epoxy7]

The only thing I'd like to add is that the target model with the rail does actually have sights. It comes with a flip up front, and flip up rear emergency sight that sits flush into the rail.

If you wanted an irons only model I'd go with the standard. It comes with nice sights. But if you want optics, then a target or the flat top carbine is the answer.

They are very nice rifles. That being said they have a reputation that's a bit beyond reality. They aren't the "excalibur" of black rifles. They are cool, well thought out (even though there are ergonomic issues from it's Klashnikoff heritage) and very well built. It's a nice rifle for any collection.

 

[Ar180shooter]

The Sig 550 was based off of the SIG 540, and the "Swiss Arms Sporter series" or whatever we get, is is based off of the 540 as well. The 540 (although not in production anymore) was non-restricted.

The ones we get are a little bit different in the spacing of the parts etc.... so they are not compatible with the Sig 550. Since the SIG 550 is prohib by name, the Swiss made a slightly different one for us.

The overall design/function principle is the same though.

Cool, I didn't know that. So it'd be kind of like making an Ar-15 style rifle based off a scaled down Ar-10.

 

[Zephram]

Thanks for the replies guys! Ghostie, that thread you made on the Swiss Arms breakdown was absolutely awesome. Thats a terrific thread man I was really stoked to get to see the internals and the breakdown like that.

Because the barrel sits low in the receiver (under the gas tube) on a Swiss, and need to add a rail, plus clear the height of the rear sight.... the vertical distance between the line of sight of the optic and the line of sight of the barrel can be quite large. This can cause some problems... i.e., the gun is only really sighted in at one particular distance

I don't have a lot of experience with too many sights but I wonder if there are sights that you can zero at different distances and then switch between your saved presets with a button push or something.

I get the feeling most people go with the Classic models and not the Target, I need to hunt down a good pic of the Target model without the sights. Obviously, what you would want to do is what you are trying to do, have some irons that are quality and some kind of red dot optics you can co-witness with. I wonder how to achieve this without actually trying the scopes. Do you have to visit an extremely well stocked shop and actually mount the optics to "test" before purchase? Does the target model allow effective mounting of AR BUIS like the Troy Industries with a decent sight radius?

I think the rails can be had for around $200. I bought mine (an unopened one) off the EE for $200 cash. Kind of pricey for a chunk of metal, but welcome to Swiss Arms land.

It totally is way too much. I think the rifle is highly overpriced as well, because its intrinsic value does not equate to $3700 and the cost of production CERTAINLY does not. The design is old and any design costs would have already been recouped. I don't know why the price would be so high on these but my guess would be some significant profiteering coupled with the cache that a gun like this, or guns in general in Canada, have. The price of a Sig 556 in the USA is approx $1500 bucks, less than half of what is being asked here. Issues about quality / whatever aside, imo its clear the cost of production is nowhere near $3700 for the swiss arms.

Thanks again guys!

 

[nestle]

The Sig 550 was based off of the SIG 540, and the "Swiss Arms Sporter series" or whatever we get, is is based off of the 540 as well. The 540 (although not in production anymore) was non-restricted.

The ones we get are a little bit different in the spacing of the parts etc.... so they are not compatible with the Sig 550. Since the SIG 550 is prohib by name, the Swiss made a slightly different one for us.

Absolutely incorrect. The 540 receiver is dimensionally different and no parts interchange. But I've been told not to pursue this further.

 

[Merch]

I get the feeling most people go with the Classic models and not the Target, I need to hunt down a good pic of the Target model without the sights. Obviously, what you would want to do is what you are trying to do, have some irons that are quality and some kind of red dot optics you can co-witness with. I wonder how to achieve this without actually trying the scopes. Do you have to visit an extremely well stocked shop and actually mount the optics to "test" before purchase? Does the target model allow effective mounting of AR BUIS like the Troy Industries with a decent sight radius?

Some (ex Elcan C79) will have different 'settings' for different distances but they aren't actually different zeros as you can't set them yourself it just compensates for expected bullet drop. More common than an actual switch/button is just a bullet drop compensator (BDC) on the reticle that will show you expected bullet drop.

Co-witnessing can be difficult without being able to try out the different rail, mount and optic combos. Once you decide with optics and rail you are considering try doing some searches to see what other people are using to co-witness. For example there have been a few threads on how to co-witness with Swiss Arms rifles and Aimpoint Mircos.

Yes you can effectively mount Troy and other similar BUIS to the rifle.

If you don't find any good pics of the target model without optics I can take a couple for you.

It totally is way too much. I think the rifle is highly overpriced as well, because its intrinsic value does not equate to $3700 and the cost of production CERTAINLY does not. The design is old and any design costs would have already been recouped. I don't know why the price would be so high on these but my guess would be some significant profiteering coupled with the cache that a gun like this, or guns in general in Canada, have. The price of a Sig 556 in the USA is approx $1500 bucks, less than half of what is being asked here. Issues about quality / whatever aside, imo its clear the cost of production is nowhere near $3700 for the swiss arms.

Thanks again guys!

The B&T top rail is actually about $110-120 brand new. It usually goes for $100 on the EE.

The Swiss Arms rifles are made in Switzerland not the US so you can't really compare the cost directly. The price we pay in Canada is about the same as the MSRP in Europe. I'm not sure what the street price in Europe is.

 

[Scocou]

...
It totally is way too much. I think the rifle is highly overpriced as well, because its intrinsic value does not equate to $3700 and the cost of production CERTAINLY does not. The design is old and any design costs would have already been recouped. I don't know why the price would be so high on these but my guess would be some significant profiteering coupled with the cache that a gun like this, or guns in general in Canada, have. The price of a Sig 556 in the USA is approx $1500 bucks, less than half of what is being asked here. Issues about quality / whatever aside, imo its clear the cost of production is nowhere near $3700 for the swiss arms.

Thanks again guys!

I understand your points but I think you're a little high on your figures. I paid $3200 (all in, to my door) for my SAN Carbine last summer, brand spankin' new from a retailer. It definitely pays to shop around.

Granted it's just my opinion, but I wouldn't trade 2 Sig 556's for it. Not that there's anything wrong with them, I just don't think they are an apples-to-apples comparison.

Like others have mentioned, there's no significant markup in Canada over what the Swiss pay. I think you're correct that SAN is pulling in a good margin, but they are also delivering a high quality product.

Cheers!

 

[Epoxy7]

I get the feeling most people go with the Classic models and not the Target, I need to hunt down a good pic of the Target model without the sights.

Here's a pic of mine.

Nickorette has some excellent pictures of his target model. It's worth doing a search.

 

[Scocou]

Here's a pic of mine.

Nickorette has some excellent pictures of his target model. It's worth doing a search.

Beautiful rifle Epoxy! I think the full length looks best with a flattop, also looks better in black. Sweet scope too, seems a perfect fit.

 

[Zephram]

@Epoxy7

Awesome rifle man, thanks for showing! I think you bought the exact same config I'd go for, color and all. What is that little nub sticking up where the front sight should be? Also, is that a little Canadian maple leaf on the side there? I recall thinking I had seen that there before, but if it were that would mean to me that these are specifically manufactured for Canadian export, which is not what I would have expected.

Granted it's just my opinion, but I wouldn't trade 2 Sig 556's for it. Not that there's anything wrong with them, I just don't think they are an apples-to-apples comparison.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I feel like if the Sig 556 didn't compare to this rifle, I'm not sure what would. This seems like the closest comparison and fair imo.

AFAIK the US requires something like, what 10 parts to be made in the US and attached there in order to call it a US made gun and bypass their federal assault weapons import bans? I wonder what 10 parts are different in the 556?? It is a Sig after all, it can't be that bad. I bet its actually a great rifle. It takes AR mags! A plus in my book, those are cheaper and more available, and now you can use 10 rounders thanks to the AR type pistol which was approved for sale in Canada.

I obviously don't have all the facts about both these rifles but honestly, if I were faced with 2 556's vs this gun, I'd probably go 556. I'd definitely go 556 for 1 @ $1500, and spend the other $1700+ on a ton of other guns or ammo. In a totally honest way I'd love to hear a good argument as to why the delta between these rifles is worth $1700 bucks Besides the obvious I mean, that you can't (to the best of my knowledge) even get the 556 here.

 

[twyeh]

One is made in Switzerland, one in New Hampshire. One is made with Steel, one with aluminum, and Swiss Arms is not the same company as SIG Sauer USA.

In a way they are apples and oranges. plenty in USA will trade up to to a real SIG if it was available as they feel the 556 is a clone of a 550. And I will argue the 550 magazines are superior in design until the advent of Pmags recently.

But I have to agree on the mystique surrounding a true Swiss made SIG, it is a bit hyped due to its rarity. Similar to the folks who only buy West German made SIG Sauer pistols and not the recent USA ones.

 

[RaTa]

I have to say I like the trigger on my 556 lower better then the SAPE90 lower. Crisper and lighter.

 

[Scocou]

Yeah, hey - to each their own. I am not knocking the 556, just saying I wouldn't compare the prices and expect it to mean much.

I also agree that ultimately the PE90 is quite expensive and has a 'mystique' surrounding it. Still, they seem to be cheaper than comparable offerings from HK, KAC and others (i.e. piston 5.56mm rifles).

Probably we are proud as Canadians that we are actually 'allowed' to own this without it being prohibited... sad but possibly true.
Cheers!

EDIT: Just a quick info note for Zephram regarding the 556 and AR mags. There are now affordable mags for the SAN available, same price as the average AR mag (Pmag or metal). Maybe someday we'll get 10 rounders too! Or god forbid, rivetless 30 rounders like big boys should have (here's to hoping )... cheers man.

 

[RaTa]

The main reason the PE90 is so expensive is that it is made by what could be classified as a custom house in a wealthy European country. Otherwise the design is meant to be cheap to build. If the PE90 was made in the US I would expect the price to be comparable to the 556 if not less.