Finally got a lathe

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned here, is that if you chuck up hot-rolled steel in your 3-jaw chuck, it will mess up the accuracy of the chuck. Ideally, you should chuck up rough surfaced work in the 4-jaw chuck. It is surprising how quickly you can do this once you have practiced. If you want to set up an EXISTING shaft to run perfectly true, use the 4-jaw with shims in between so you can adjust at the chuck and tap at the far end with a soft hammer. Pieces of flat brass stock work well for this, so do chunks of old automotive connecting rod insert bearings. You keep checking end to end for runout with a dial indicator until you get it trued. Probably not the thing you will do the first week, but eventually you will need to do this.
Bill
 
Bushwacker, you're certainly right that the mill scale on the hot rolled stuff is hellishly abrasive. But since I've yet to find a 3 jaw that runs CONSISTENTLY true over the whole range I've never trusted the darn things anyway.
 
And now consider the fact that most good machinists in their life may only ever learn about .5 to 1% of what there really is to know in this manufacturing world, and many get by their whole career on less.

What gets me is the Gomers who have only worked for one company and think what they do is industry standard.

They MIGHT be good at what they do, but that doesn't make the world go around.


On the other hand, I always listen to the voice of experience no matter who or where they are. I have learned a lot by paying attention and listening.
 
Brewster, by now you've figured out that it was the wrong 29.5. And your experience matches mine on the lack of hack marks to use for setting the angles. Which is why I was suggesting adding some.

What I do when cutting threads is that I set the compound up and set the cross slide dial to "0". To cut the thread I move the compound in for the amount of the cut. As the cutter reaches the end of the thread portion I use the cross slide to suddenly pull back out. Because it was set to "0" it is then easy to put back right on the money. The compound is then set in by the amount for the next cut.

There's often quite a bit of flex in thread cutting. So every couple of passes I do a pass with no added cut on the compound. These clean up cuts typically remove a couple of thou despite not adding anything to the compound. It's also a wake up call as to how much even a good setup flexes and why it's so important to do light clean up cuts when working to specific sizes.

Now you're loggin"!

:cheers:
 
Bushwacker, you're certainly right that the mill scale on the hot rolled stuff is hellishly abrasive. But since I've yet to find a 3 jaw that runs CONSISTENTLY true over the whole range I've never trusted the darn things anyway.

a 3 jaw chuck is never to be used for something that will be taken out and re chucked. it is meant for roughing, or doing an entire part in one clamping. no 3jaw chuck (even "precision" 3 jaw chucks) is accurate enough to unclamp and re-clamp and be perfectly aligned, even a 4 jaw may not be good enough to re-chuck a part. only way to get a truly removable part and put it back accurately is to use a drive dog and turn between centers.
 
a 3 jaw chuck is never to be used for something that will be taken out and re chucked. it is meant for roughing, or doing an entire part in one clamping. no 3jaw chuck (even "precision" 3 jaw chucks) is accurate enough to unclamp and re-clamp and be perfectly aligned, even a 4 jaw may not be good enough to re-chuck a part. only way to get a truly removable part and put it back accurately is to use a drive dog and turn between centers.

Which is a bit of an art form in it's own right, esp if the lubes goes fubar and eats the tip and the running seat of the center it runs upon. But there are ways and means of dealing with that too.

I learned a great deal about fine work, dealing with what I did as a hobby playing with a very small watchmakers lathe (in truth,a standard sized watchmakers lathe) a WW Pattern unit that I bought in the mid 1980's. Sharp tools were the order of the day, using hand held tools and cutting with a sewing machine motor driving the lathe with a leather bootlace.

Cutting a disposable mandrel from a piece of stock is another good way to make a part on a 3 jaw chuck that will allow you to repeat the removal and installation as well. The accuracy which with the mandrel is made, will dictate the accuracy of the repeat positioning. Doing this, you can remove and install such parts as bushings, where you may need to bore them out or shorten them.

There is much to be said for a shellac chuck, as far as removing and reinstalling work to run true is concerned. About as much to be said against it, too, from a practical point of view, but it is but one of many tools in the toolbox, as it were.

There is lots of good to be gained from reading about how it was done in the past, but one must keep in mind that to trap oneself there, for any reason but a historical recreation, is a bit foolish.

There is a lot of good literature out there, and of it, the hobby metalworking stuff likely has the most bearing upon a fella wanting to learn gunsmith machining, as it closely parallels the needs of a gunsmith, with more emphasis on making one good part, than several dozen or hundred per day. I recommend grabbing a few issues of Home Shop Machinist out of the States, and/or Model Engineers Workshop (a UK publication from the publishers of Model Engineer, with more emphasis upon workshop stuff than steam trains and engines).

If a fella can learn from books, there are a lot of good ones out there, and no fair few of crappy ones. Use the public library to borrow books to pre screen them. Buy the ones that suit your needs. Some, I would have been grossly disappointed in, had I purchased them, one called Machine Shop Secrets comes to mind. Borrow it from the library first.

Re-reading this post, it comes off a random collection of thoughts. If you get something useful from it, use that! :)

Cheers
Trev
 
Yeah. I have had to make a dead center on a 3 jaw when the shop I was in didnt have a drive plate and drive dog. I had to make the drive dog so I didnt have to cut 2 inches off the barrel I was working on welding a nail or chunk of scrap to it to drive it. Had the other gunsmith (no training as a machinist) wondering why I was wasting time making these things. He had never done any of this had always just chucked and unchucked on a 3 jaw until I showed him the run out from just flipping ends on a scrap bar. Then he started doing the dead center in the 3 jaw with the drive welded to the barrel.
 
I can't believe some of the theories here!

If you are machining hot rolled material with scale on it you should be using a 3 jaw chuck. A 4 jaw can be a safety concern if the material isn't sufficiently round.

If you are clamping anything that is a machined surface or cold rolled that you do not want to damage you should be using soft jaws. Hard jaws are for mill scale or a surface you do not care about where run-out is of minimal concern.

If you want to clamp and re-clamp then machining soft-jaws to the correct diameter will allow you to do it regardless of the number of jaws. The larger the radial contact the less issues you will have.

A quality chuck will give you better performance in all these scenarios. A bison is the low end of the scale but is much better then the Chinese knock-off stuff. If you can acquire a better brand its worth the price.

Taking if off and cleaning out from time to time will help the performance.

Another thing worth noting it's possible to true up the hard jaws on your chuck. (You will have to do this as they wear over time.)

If you take all this in consideration you will find the 3 jaw is MORE than capable of doing any project the garage machinist may encounter.:cool:
 
Gagreflex, a lot of your points I can appreciate and there's some further jewels in there which have not come up before in this thread. But I will take some exception to a couple of your points. Or perhaps there is a misunderstanding.

First off the normal assumption is that a 4 jaw chuck is the independent jaw style unless I see "4 jaw self centering".

Soft jaws are great things for semi production work. But as used on a 3 jaw self centering style chuck they still do not ensure consistent centering for high precision work. By that I mean when you need to get the centering consistently accurate to a thou or less. For me the use of soft jaws is where we need a greater contact area to avoid surface damage and/or when we want to build in a depth stop for facing off operations or something of that sort. In such cases soft jaws shine.

I'll grant you that buying a quality 3 jaw may well get around a lot of the centering accuracy issues. But the big majority of home shop hobby machinists are simply not going to be able to justify the $800 or more for a truly good chuck that holds a more accurate runout value.

You also raise a good point about using a tool post grinder to true up the hardened jaws from time to time. In normal use the last 1/2 inch seems to see a LOT more use than the rear portion of the jaws. So it's worth checking and if worn to grind off a skim to true things up.
 
I can't believe some of the theories here!

If you are machining hot rolled material with scale on it you should be using a 3 jaw chuck. A 4 jaw can be a safety concern if the material isn't sufficiently round.

If you are clamping anything that is a machined surface or cold rolled that you do not want to damage you should be using soft jaws. Hard jaws are for mill scale or a surface you do not care about where run-out is of minimal concern.

If you want to clamp and re-clamp then machining soft-jaws to the correct diameter will allow you to do it regardless of the number of jaws. The larger the radial contact the less issues you will have.

A quality chuck will give you better performance in all these scenarios. A bison is the low end of the scale but is much better then the Chinese knock-off stuff. If you can acquire a better brand its worth the price.

Taking if off and cleaning out from time to time will help the performance.

Another thing worth noting it's possible to true up the hard jaws on your chuck. (You will have to do this as they wear over time.)

If you take all this in consideration you will find the 3 jaw is MORE than capable of doing any project the garage machinist may encounter.:cool:

What they taught be in college for tool and die for 4 jaws, is to always use brass shims on the jaws, keeps the work undamaged, also gives a bit of squish room to move the part around so you arent fighting with the jaws getting them correct.
 
I've made 1000s of parts with soft jaws, very accurate, 4 jaws do have their place but
I'm not a fan, I have a bison on my cnc lathe and it has been awesome , I got the forged
Steel one, don't get cast iron one
 
What they taught be in college for tool and die for 4 jaws, is to always use brass shims on the jaws, keeps the work undamaged, also gives a bit of squish room to move the part around so you arent fighting with the jaws getting them correct.

Here's a hint on "shims". Use a single strip and wrap it all the way around.

I have been guilty of pulling up a chair, along with a couple other guys in the shop, and sitting making side bets on how long it takes for some guy to finally figure out that juggling 4 postage stamp sized shims is a waste of his time.
Shim stock is cheap! Cut a strip with a pair of scissors, and it'll stay where it's put, each time the one jaw is released to make adjustments.

Cheers
Trev
 
I've made 1000s of parts with soft jaws, very accurate, 4 jaws do have their place but
I'm not a fan, I have a bison on my cnc lathe and it has been awesome , I got the forged
Steel one, don't get cast iron one

You don't do gunsmithing for a living do you?

Making one part and moving on to something different is a more likely scenario than making enough of anything to justify boring a set of soft jaws. So it really REALLY, isn't much good as far as suggesting that route for a fellow just learning to use a lathe, let alone a fellow that is heading towards hobby gunsmithing. Kinda...obstructionist.

A 6000 rpm rated chuck...maybe overkill on a 1800 rpm lathe, too. Or a 2500 rpm one.

Cheers
Trev
 
I just found out that what I had thought was a Southbend 9" workshop model C is actually most likely a 405. The serial puts it at early 1934! The only noted upgrade seems to be modern quickchange toolpost. I'm still trying to get her hooked up and cleaned!
 
Once you start making soft jaws for your chuck you will have a nice collection in no time, I have maybe 50 different sets now of various sizes, take only a few minutes to change and square up, I had a cheap cast iron Chinese chuck, lasted me 2 years but it cracked
From too much use
 
A gunsmith is not going to have any use for softjaws. Going to be turning between centers, a 3 jaw for fast jobs. Or a 4 jaw chuck for bigger.
 
I just found out that what I had thought was a Southbend 9" workshop model C is actually most likely a 405. The serial puts it at early 1934! The only noted upgrade seems to be modern quickchange toolpost. I'm still trying to get her hooked up and cleaned!

That's what I have an old 30's era southbend but I don't know the model.

Where is the serial number look up?
 
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