Finally got out to shoot my Enfield!

[mwjones]

I purchased a Lithgow no 1 mk iii sporter from another member during the winter, and hadn't got out to shoot it until yesterday! I wanted to shoot it first, before spending hundreds restoring it to military condition. I think I finally got a load worked out, or at least a starting point! Shooting 5 shot groups at 50 yards.

I'm using IVI 02 brass, cci 200 primers, and a Lee CTL312-1260-2R (7.62x39) mould. Gas checked with gator gas checks and yellow dragon lube from dragon bullet lubes, they come out to about 170gr +/- 1. Bullets are seated to just lightly engrave on the rifling. I had hoped that with these bullets i might be able to load them to full oal, but no dice. However, all of the round nose bullets i've found require to be seated even shorter. OAL is about 2.875.

I started out with some 4895 because i had some from loading .308. Started with 37, 38 and 39gr. 37 was printing 12" group at 50 yards, 38 about 9", and 39 about 6". I don't have a chrony, but quickload puts 39 grains at about 2350FPS, and I didn't want to push them any faster than that.

I then switched to BLC(2) with 38, 39, 40 and 41 grains. 38 shout about 8" inches, 39 about 4", 40 just over 2", and 40 grains opened back up to 6". I'm going to trickle up a bunch of 39.5, 40, and 40.5 gr loads for next time.

Assuming that this is the best it will do, I've apparently got an honest 4-5moa lee enfield, which from what i've read, about 80% of them were. Sounds liek a candidate for restoration to me! Just need to find someone with the parts i need that will sell them to me for less than a kidney

Overall, I'm happy with my first LE experience. I have a winchester p14 sporter sitting in the cabinet too, waiting to be shot

 

[gregc]

try 5744 with between 25 to 28 grains and you should be able to improve your groups a great deal. i use the same mould in my 1950 enfield and on a good day, i can get 2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards. I have several magazine articles that review shooting cast in military rifle that outline the use of 5744 in great detail that you should be able to access on the internet.

regards

 

[mwjones]

Unfortunately i've got a can and a half ob BL-c(2) to use up I consider myself lucky to have it, it's kinda a pain to get reloading components around here 39.99 for a pound of powder, 49.99 for 1k cci large rifle porimers too :S

 

[sunray]

Check the headspace first. Don't spend any money until you do. Then slug the barrel. Hammer a cast .30 calibre bullet or suitably sized lead fishing sinker through the barrel with a 1/4" brass or Al rod and a plastic mallet, then measure the bullet/sinker with a micrometer. Lee-Enfield barrels can measure from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Over .315", the barrel is shot out.
Factory bullets are .311" or .312" diameter. They won't give decent accuracy out of a .313" plus barrel. Nobody is making anything bigger.

 

[smellie]

Friend, you are going to need a set of hermaphrodite calipers or a rather special micrometer if you go slugging an Enfield barrel, as suggested just above. They have 5 grooves and the lands and grooves are opposite each other, land opposite groove.

Quick, easy, cheap way to get a rough idea of the dimensions of a .303 barrel is to insert a Ball round of milspec ammo into the muzzle, see how far the casing stands out of the barrel. You can then mike the slug whre it stopped nd that will give you the bore diameter at the muzzle. If your lands have nice sharp edges and the Ball round stands out of the muzzle anything over about 3mm, you have a barrel which can be made to shoot.

Headspace on the LE is controlled and adjusted by changing bolt-heads: not rocket science and, to be honest, rarely even necessary. Headspace with a rimmed cartridge is nowhere near as finicky as with a rimless round: the RIM holds the thing from going too far into the chamber.

As to your groups, I would say that your rifle has "issues" with its bedding and/or screws. Lots of info on this forum regarding repairs to The Damned Crack, bedding the beasts, tightness of screws and so forth.

My test load for any .303 is as follows: 37 grains of IMR-4895 with a Sierra 180 Pro-Hunter flatbase bullet, loaded to the OAL of a Mark VII Ball round. This runs about 2250 ft/sec and the bullet crowds the rifling just a tad. If a rifle won't do better than 2 MOA with this load, then I inspect for bedding and fit issues..... which are sure to be there if the thing has a half-decent barrel. Service barrel life on these was about five-eighths of forever (as compared to other rifles); it would be unusual to encounter a Lithgow with a really bad barrel, the majority of them being better shooters than the guys behind the buttplates.

But if the rifle has any kind of a barrel at all, it is possible to get it shooting much better than what you are getting. People here will help; all you have to do is ask.

You're having fun. Welcome to the club!
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[buffdog]

Advice

Check the headspace first. Don't spend any money until you do. Then slug the barrel. Hammer a cast .30 calibre bullet or suitably sized lead fishing sinker through the barrel with a 1/4" brass or Al rod and a plastic mallet, then measure the bullet/sinker with a micrometer. Lee-Enfield barrels can measure from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Over .315", the barrel is shot out.
Factory bullets are .311" or .312" diameter. They won't give decent accuracy out of a .313" plus barrel. Nobody is making anything bigger.

Oh,Oh! Another "check the headspace post." George just loves those. I knew this this would incur a responding post by SMELLIE, You should be aware that he probably knew all of the above while he was still wearing diapers, or at least by 16 years old, and headspace is not as critical as some people believe, especially in a rimmed case. As he is now over 65, has firearms no one has even dreamed or heard of, and is an acknowledged Historian and former Newspaper Editor. He probably knows more about the Ross, Lee-Enfield system, and Maxim machine guns than 10 people on this forum put together. He has visited the Pattern Room at Enfield, and while there actually identified some weapons they were unsure of, and gave them information on where to find the documents on these weapons. From his notes, he even wrote them a couple of Manuals on the Maxim Machine Guns. The Thesis he wrote in University on British military firearms from 1812 to the Second Battle of Ypres is a classic reference that is still quoted today.

George's friend and Mentor, with whom he shot regularly, was a five time Member, and twice Captain of the Canadian Bisley Team.

Oh, and one other thing! NEVER, EVER, make a bet with SMELLIE about historical facts or properties of weapons. If you do, your wallet will be a lot lighter.
.

 

[ben hunchak]

You would be very lucky if .312" is optimum for your barrel and provides best accuracy, most like a wider cast bullet.

 

[smellie]

Ben does have a point. It's better to START with a jacketed bullet: much better for diagnosing flaws. Once you have the critter really SHOOTING with a jacketed slug, then is the time to go over to cast, given that you have a bore which has been shot enough to remove toolmarks.

One thing about Enfield rifling: it has a vast preference for flatbase bullets. A rifle with an Enfield barrel which will shoot all over the place with boat-tails, often will sit up and do tricks when fed flatbase slugs. The flatbase bullets, if they are kicked hard enough on their tails (a fast powder is best for this), actually UPSET to fill the bore.

BTW, the British determined by actual test in 1910 that the LE rifle nearly always will shoot its best with a .312 bullet. I have NO idea why the Americans keep making the things in .311! Good point is that American bullets tend to be softer than military, and so upset and seal the bore (obturate) easier.

I am using that same LEE bullet, just with Hornady gas-checks and LEE lube, in a very nice Number 4 with a hulking great scope on the thing. I'm getting barely 2 MOA.

Thing with cast bullets is that you can waste a lot of powder with them, giving you fireballs at the muzzle and ear-splitting reports with loads which, with jacketed slugs, can be mild. The cast bullet just slips down the bore SO easily that you have incomplete burn on the powder, so it burns in the air, creating flash and noise. C.E. Harris, the fellow who actually designed the bullet you are using, was a famous rifle shot. He designed what he called his "Universal" load for cast bullets in military-sized rifles. He used a 180-grain cast bullet with 13 grains of Red Dot shotgun powder. This is a cheap load (538 shots to the pound of powder), so you can shoot lots and lots of them and your barrel will never wear out, literally. This gave him about 1800 - 1900 ft/sec, depending on the casing being used, very little report, very little recoil..... and 2 MOA accuracy. Friend BUFFDOG has used this load successfully out to 300 yards and, one must admit, taking gophers with a Lee-Enfield at 300 yards is pretty hard to beat.

Thing is, this is pretty much the ideal velocity 'window' for most cast bullets. Running them faster is either for experts... or very lucky people.

Hope this helps.

Have fun!
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[Normmus]

C.E. Harris, the fellow who actually designed the bullet you are using, was a famous rifle shot. He designed what he called his "Universal" load for cast bullets in military-sized rifles. He used a 180-grain cast bullet with 13 grains of Red Dot shotgun powder. This is a cheap load (538 shots to the pound of powder), so you can shoot lots and lots of them and your barrel will never wear out, literally. This gave him about 1800 - 1900 ft/sec, depending on the casing being used, very little report, very little recoil..... and 2 MOA accuracy. Have fun!
.

Would one have to use a gas check withy this universal load at the velocity of 1800-1900 fps?

 

[smellie]

That speed is just about borderline for some rifles. I am using gas checks on my own bullets and they appear to like them. Nice thing about the gas check is that you can size the thing a thou or 2 or 3 oversize, thus helping the obturation.

I just shoot cast bullets in my 303s for fun and because I'm cheap. Friend Ben likely gets a LOT better results than I do, but then, he's an expert on these things: good guy to listen to very carefully.

There are several people on this forum who REALLY know their onions. You will very quickly recognize which ones are solid enough to trust on Lee-Enfield problems, which ones to trust on Mauser problems, which ones you can trust about Mannlichers..... It's a lot of fun; you're going to have to get one of each, just so you can compare them!

Hope this helps.
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[donor]

For shooting casts "on the cheap" I don't think there is anything better than Red Dot or Promo.

It costs 99$ for 8 lbs keg of Promo at Lawry Shooting,average charge in milsurps is 13 Gr-you do the math.

With proper size cast this powder can easily cut down groups to less than 2 inch at a 50 yrs and 3 at a 100 yrs.

Problems might occur with finding right iron sight setting,but its manageable.

 

[bigedp51]

Super glue will work best for gluing your stock together, balsawood RC model aircraft use super glue to glue the wood parts together because it "welds" the wood together. (soaks into the wood on either side of the crack which makes a stronger bond)

Also many older stocks suffer from wood shrinkage which makes the rear draws area of the forestock loose and accuracy suffers. The very rear of your fore stock should be touching the receiver ring at the shaded areas below.

Below a modified Australian range rifle, note the extra screws in the bottom of the photo. These screws go through the rear of the draws area of the stock and into the receiver ring, which is drilled and tapped. These screws draw the rear of the stock "tight" against the receiver ring to help prevent the stock from "flexing" at the forward trigger guard screw. The light colored shims at the top of the stock prevent the receiver from moving or flexing downward. An Australian explaned to me the rear of the stock should be as tight as buggery to maintain accuracy and constant up pressure at the fore end tip.

The "draws area" in normal military Enfield bedding acts like a second bedding screw and "draws" the the stock up tight against the receiver ring and prevents stock flexing.

You shim the forward area of the draws to "push" the rear of the fore stock against the receiver ring.

The draws area bedding points.

If you can fit a feeler gauge between the rear of the fore stock and the receiver ring you have wood shrinkage and you need to shim the draws.

The collar or forward trigger guard bushing is used to prevent excessive "wood crush" and need to be .010 shorter than actual stock thickness.

The following information was brought to you by an American.

 

[bigedp51]

One further note, "dry" Enfield stocks will shrink and crack. "RAW" linseed oil only was used on the wood to keep it hydrated.

 

[plinker 777]

Super glue will work best for gluing your stock together, balsawood RC model aircraft use super glue to glue the wood parts together because it "welds" the wood together. (soaks into the wood on either side of the crack which makes a stronger bond)

Also many older stocks suffer from wood shrinkage which makes the rear draws area of the forestock loose and accuracy suffers. The very rear of your fore stock should be touching the receiver ring at the shaded areas below.

Below a modified Australian range rifle, note the extra screws in the bottom of the photo. These screws go through the rear of the draws area of the stock and into the receiver ring, which is drilled and tapped. These screws draw the rear of the stock "tight" against the receiver ring to help prevent the stock from "flexing" at the forward trigger guard screw. The light colored shims at the top of the stock prevent the receiver from moving or flexing downward. An Australian explaned to me the rear of the stock should be as tight as buggery to maintain accuracy and constant up pressure at the fore end tip.

The "draws area" in normal military Enfield bedding acts like a second bedding screw and "draws" the the stock up tight against the receiver ring and prevents stock flexing.

You shim the forward area of the draws to "push" the rear of the fore stock against the receiver ring.

The draws area bedding points.

If you can fit a feeler gauge between the rear of the fore stock and the receiver ring you have wood shrinkage and you need to shim the draws.

The collar or forward trigger guard bushing is used to prevent excessive "wood crush" and need to be .010 shorter than actual stock thickness.

The following information was brought to you by an American.

That is quite possibly the coolest, most straight forward, unencumbered explanation of Enfield care I've ever seen....Thank you And from a "Yank" to boot! I hereby publicly declare the following: I recant any and all slanderous comments made by myself in the past, present or future either to friends, family or the public at large. I have been misinformed, misguided and prejudiced toward our American cousins as a whole. Again, I was wrong, and for that I humbly apologize. Out of 300 million.....1 of you are all right

 

[smellie]

Some people get really ticked at Big Ed's lavishly-illustrated explanations.

Only problem is that he really knows his onions and he's happy to share what he knows.

That can be pretty hard to beat, you know.
.

 

[bigedp51]

That is quite possibly the coolest, most straight forward, unencumbered explanation of Enfield care I've ever seen....Thank you And from a "Yank" to boot! I hereby publicly declare the following: I recant any and all slanderous comments made by myself in the past, present or future either to friends, family or the public at large. I have been misinformed, misguided and prejudiced toward our American cousins as a whole. Again, I was wrong, and for that I humbly apologize. Out of 300 million.....1 of you are all right

Plinker777

I forgive you for asking me why the American White House is painted white.

My wife gave me my first British Enfield for Xmas years ago and I didn't know anything about this fine rifle, so I set about educating myself by tracking down Enfield books and military manuals. 95% of all the Enfield books and manuals you see at Badgers Milsurp forum were donated by me.

"All the information in the world is written in books, and all you have to do is read"

The Australian photo and Canadian center bedding diagram below made the light bulb go off about the rear bedding of the Enfield rifle. Its all about keeping a constant "up pressure" at the fore end tip.

NOTE: Only the L42 sniper rifle and the Jungle carbine have a "free floating barrel.

 

[plinker 777]

Actually, i do know why the White house is white...Although he wasn't there himself, my direct ancestor {a ahemm "Yank"} that came to Canada in 1792 did fight in the war of 1812 in the Kings militia. He saw action at Gananoque {you guys bloodied our noses there} so in retaliation for that and several other American raids, Ogdensburg was raised. He was there and as a trophy took an officers tunic. This tunic can be found in archives of Fort York, which of course brings us back to why the White House is white {burning of Fort York} I had my No4 Mk2 out today and seem to be able to make 3" groups @ 50yards but when I get out to 100 yards I seem to be all over the place?! Surely my sks can't be more accurate than the Enfield? SKS @ 50 yrds I'm almost leaving ragged holes where the corner Bulls are and @ 100 yrds that turns into perhaps 4-6" center bull groups with Iron sights on both rifles. Where am I going wrong with my Enfield? Any tips?

 

[bigedp51]

plinker777

Below my first Enfield before and after the light bulb went off about Enfield bedding. Top photo is the best group at 50 yards with five groups fired, one group had only one bullet hole in the target.

Bottom photo, 50 yards, ten shot group after bedding the draws area and making sure I had proper up pressure at the fore end tip.

Below after installing a PH-5C target sight, I was a little disappointed because I had two fliers.

Proper bedding, the stock fitting tightly in the rear draws area and the forward trigger guard screw bushing or collar adjusted to the correct hight. If the fore stock can flex downward due to it being loose in the rear draws area then shot to shot up pressure will change and accuracy suffers.

NOTE: Boiled linseed oil was never applied to normal issued Enfield rifles, and only raw linseed oil was applied. The raw linseed oil kept the wood hydrated and this oil penetrated deeply into the wood and kept it from shrinking.

If your wood stock shrinks accuracy goes out the window because the barrel is free to flex uncontrollably. Up pressure at the fore end tip regulates barrel vibrations and thus controls accuracy.

Please note with "military" ammunition the up pressure was to be from 2 to 7 pounds of up pressure. Also note any Enfield rifle delivered to Holland and Holland for conversion to a No.4 (T) sniper rifle was rejected outright and sent back to their owning organizations if the rifle did not have between 2 and 7 pounds of up pressure. (Holland and Holland wasn't going to put their name on a rifle they knew wasn't going to shoot straight from the get go)

Even the modern synthetic stocks and wooden stocks on a Remington 700 have 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip today.

Canadian No.4 bedding.

British No.4 Bedding. (from my spy's in the old British MOD Pattern Room Library)

My secret isn't being American, my secret is being sneaky and getting all the manuals I could find and reading them.

Note to the Canadians, please "NO" duct tape on your Enfields to fix them.

Remember if the Ladies don't find you handsome at least they can find you handy......................................when you bed them properly.

 

[mwjones]

Holy #&$%( what the hell happened to my thread?!? You leave a post alone for a couple days, and look what happens...

I'll try to address some of the things brought up here, though i admid i did skim a few of the posts....

Headspace won't be an issue, full length sizing for the first firing, and neck sizing thereafter.

I have already slugged the bore. I used the suggested brass rod method, and used a piece of brass shim stock to get my measurement. (overall minus shimx2= ) and it's .3121, and yes i used a micrometer not a caliper.

As far as huge groups go, well...there's not much fo the original stock left TO bed. I've read about the nosecap tension being a critical component, which was why i though of restoring it to begin with!

Anyway, i'll be out to shoot a little more this week. For right now, i'm just trying to get this rifle to shoot as is, so....

Thanks for the replies (though i'm still trying to decipher the purpose of a few )

 

[plinker 777]

Holy #&$%( what the hell happened to my thread?!? You leave a post alone for a couple days, and look what happens...

I'll try to address some of the things brought up here, though i admid i did skim a few of the posts....

Headspace won't be an issue, full length sizing for the first firing, and neck sizing thereafter.

I have already slugged the bore. I used the suggested brass rod method, and used a piece of brass shim stock to get my measurement. (overall minus shimx2= ) and it's .3121, and yes i used a micrometer not a caliper.

As far as huge groups go, well...there's not much fo the original stock left TO bed. I've read about the nosecap tension being a critical component, which was why i though of restoring it to begin with!

Anyway, i'll be out to shoot a little more this week. For right now, i'm just trying to get this rifle to shoot as is, so....

Thanks for the replies (though i'm still trying to decipher the purpose of a few )

Sorry Dude, my bad