finding precision

Obtunded

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This site is filled with threads about trying to solve issues relating to precision. It is also filled with irrelevent claims as to which brand is better. I know there are several here that have a great deal of experience in shooting and with a whole continuum of equipment and cartridges. They quietly say the same things over and over again: Learn to reload, buy the best you can afford and practice practice practice. Precision depends on an accurate load, an accurate shooter and an accurate gun. The best you will ever achieve with be equal to the least of these three influences. Now, in regards to the accurate gun... can bling out your gun with the best gizmos out there, but if it doesn't have a decent barrel, you are wasting time and money - if ultimate precision is your objective.

There are also some "sure things" out there to get you on your way to shooting bug holes and one of those (in my humble opinion) is the venerable 6mmBR Norma. 30ish grains of Varget and a Sierra or Berger bullet and if you can't get a group in the .2's there is a problem with either you or with the gun. (At the risk of offending I think a recipe for sure failure is expecting to learn precison shooting with a factory 300 Win Mag {or insert any other big bajeezus cartridge} hunting rifle)

Ironically enough, there was a story on 6BR.com about a factory 6BR and I thought a picture is worth a thousand words so to speak. Ths is not meant to be a brand endorsement, because there are no bad barrel brands out there on custom shelves, but the lesson I thought that really lurked here was that trying to trouble shoot with too many variables can be a very costly and frustrating process. I think the best way to hedge your bets when trying to get into the precison shooting game (and by that, I mean actively seeking to shoot the very smallest groups you can with consistency for whatever your application..competitive or not) is to start out putting your money in the right places.

Most factory guns can be made to shoot better, but many will never be stellar. There are many pleasure shooters out there that will never compete, and the are many shooters that have no desire to spend the kind of money that goes in to making a match-winning gun. That does NOT mean you can't get better and it doesn't mean you can't have tons of fun, but when you DO want to take it to that next level, sorting out comsetic upgrades from functional upgrades is often under-appreciated.

Anyway, I thought this was a pretty good read.
 
Obtunded, you hit the nail on the head. So many want the Precision aspect but many have no idea what it takes or is involved to reach PRECISION.

There are 2 ways that I look at it, there is a Precision rifle built around a donor action from a mass produced rifle company, or there is the aftermarket that is done from the floor up with a custom action.

Learning about the Benchrest game and competeing along side the best shooters in the world one begins to see what is involved in reaching this. For me Precision means being able to shoot .1's on a regular basis. To achieve this one must go with the tried and true accurate cartridges for the application involved. Period. None of this trying to make all the other cartridges do that.

I am really looking forward to this thread and seeing peoples thoughts or ideas. Yes a barrel can do wonders. That is why Benchresters order multiple barrels and try them to see if they happen to find that hummer. A hummer barrel is one that you can miss the wind condition by a couple of hours and the bullet still follow and go in the hole. Guys/gals who have had these barrels on there rifles say it is a no brainer and a pleasure to shoot.
 
Soooooo... you telling me my fancy aluminum framed gun won't shoot good? How about the wicked paint job?

I can't go shooting without a rail down at least two sides of my barrel...

=)

What do I know. I shoot a budget 700 and just learning. I'm having fun.
 
It's been said before that this forum is more dedicated to Tactical rifles. There is more info and products being promoted for Black and Tactical guns than anything.
Sometimes threads get started with F-Class builds, but .5 MOA is all that is necessary to be competitive for that discipline.
Secondly, when it comes to precision I don't consider factory actions the best solution for extreme accuracy and that's why I just use Rem 700/40X actions for F-Class.
They will get me to .5MOA with a decent barrel anytime.

I recently started a thread about LV 6PPC Benchrest gun that only got a few responses from the BR community because they rarely visit this forum as I found it.
IMO, accurate guns start with the best barrel first, then the best bullets. After that you need a good action, good gunsmithing for precise fit, chambering, bedding, a known target cartridge and quality trigger. Finally, when the machine is as perfect as can be, now the shooter. Are you capable of shooting as good as the gun?

Thankyou Obtunded and cycbb486. I hope this doesn't become another Rem vs Savage thread.
 
Good Post Obtuned/ Good read for everyone link ;To Houston Warehouse story

Good post Obtunded every person that wants to build a precision rifle has to do everything you have mentioned.
reloading is a big big factor in making rifle shoot most reloaders are skipping to many things. I shoot f class with a 223 rem and if you don,t weigh powder to .01 you will have elevation problems. People neck turn there brass only if they have a tight necked chamber (wrong) I turn brass on every target gun I own.very important to have same neck tensions.
Read this articale and see what Virgil says at end of interview and how much it improved groups
this is a amazing story. Imagine shooting .025 groups consitantly just a dream for me
Enjoy
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
 
Manitou, could you clarify the statement "on every target gun you own"

What is your clasification of target gun? Are these off the shelf rifles that you consider a target gun or a rifle that has been rebarreled? Myself personally, I do not turn necks except for my competition rifles. In regards to say my Rem 700's that have been rebarrelled I have not turned necks. I shoot them as they come. I consider them fun guns and take what they will give me.

The custom builds, I put EVERY effort to make them the best they can be.

In a chambered aftermarket barrel I think it is GOLD knowing the diameter of the neck and freebore. Knowing that you have an idea what you are up against when it comes time to reload.
 
How can one say that f class or "tactical" rifles arnt precision rifles? I think there seems to be a bit of arrogance that comes along with BR guys ;) What about palma? In my opinion BR is not the only precision discipline. Take "Tactical" Shooting is there not precision involved there? Do you not have to accomodate for all (if not more)variables than you do in Br? I think we as a shooting community need to get over this Im a such and such shooter mentality. We all enjoy different aspects of the same hobby, granted im sick of the which $500 rifle are better threads too but that is what some guys are into or all they can afford. Does that make them below somebody that has the ability to afford high end gear? Everybody has to start somewhere.
Good post Obtunded, sorry if I went off on a tangent
 
RobMcleod, I don't think I ever said those disciplines in F-class, Palma, or tactical are not precision. There are so many who have the look, but lack in the accuracy/precision part. You have to have a rifle that is capable. Sometimes trying X amount of powder and bullets trying to find that magic load never happens as in the article.

Maybe some BR guys are arrogant but the ones I know are not even close. They try to expand the sport. Ask anyone who has been to the Benchrest school out at Rosebud. I know there is not one person who has left there and said they did not learn anything. I go to my home range and see more guys with tactical rifles who have attitudes than I ever did BR shooters.

This thread was not started to become a urinating contest, I think it is trying to share ideas of what can help to reach a certain level.

The bottom line is there is similarities in all the disciplines. That is trying to make your rifle as accurate as possible be it a Rem 700, Savage, Tikka etc. or custom. When your rifle is accurate it makes any of the disciplines more enjoyable and slightly easier. It takes that part out of the equation.

Coolness does not make a rifle shoot better. In the BR world we say, bullets, powder, and barrels. In other words find the best bullet, best powder and best barrel. I like to add in the chamber to that equation. If you ever find the right combination of the 4 you are never that far off when changing a barrel. It may or may not shoot but you should be able to figure it out in short order. Then you buy all you can afford of that bullet and powder lot.
 
Arrogance from BR shooters? I'm not a BR shooter yet, but the ones I've met and talked to have been the most helpful in my experience so far.
A few of them actually mentored me in gunsmithing.
 
Great post. But I'm learning and dont want to spend a whole lote of money so I'll stick to my stock 700 action and the barrel from factory for now. Untill its shot out and i'm a better shooter any way. And i've no need for the "tacticool" crap. It might be a "tactical" edition, but all I use is an Anit-cant device to help me shoot better.
 
Cycbb do you agree or not agree that a high quality BR paint job on your stock is good for reducing group size by at least .100? Haha I agree with most of the things your saying.
 
Slopok/Pig, yes everyone starts somewhere. The key is to be very careful who you take advice from. I started with a Rem 788 22-250. Traded that for a Rem 700 22-250. Which then turned into my first accurized rebarreled rifle in 6BR. That has since been done into a .223.

Whatever you do, ask questions and lots of them. Talk to REPUTABLE rifle builders. Get references from all across the country. Not just local guys that have had rifles built. Talk with people who compete even if you are not interested in it.

Precision and Precision rifles do come with a price. Yes not everyone can fork out the cash but remember with an off the shelf rifle you can put a lot of money into it and they are still not worth what you put into it. To many people get caught up in that. I like to say screwed/taken. Be realistic in your expectations of a rifle off the shelf. Realistically an off the shelf rifle is maybe at best a 3/4 in group rifle. You get one that shoots better wonderful.

Get into reloading as was mentioned above. Reloading in my mind is not to save money it is another part of the equation to reach accuracy/precision.

There are so many things that can be said about this but I think I over steeped the boundries in this thread. I do not mean to. I am very passionate about people getting the best bang for there money and striving to see them have a rifle that can shoot tiny little groups.
 
Bet that old rem 700 action has seen a pile of rounds eh! Heres a dumb question, do you find after you have worn out a barrel that the bolt lugs and recesses need to be trued again?
 
I would love to start competing. Sadly, I am to far from calgary/MB to drive the distances, shoot and come home the same day. Though, I will hopefully be able to make a trip to the Homstead?? range while there is one on this summer. HOPE. I really want to see what goes into these competions. I'm actually thinking of getting a Cooper 6.5 creedmoor from my tax money. I'm going to do alot more research first tho. Its a fun game, and it drives me crazy.
 
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Manitou, could you clarify the statement "on every target gun you own"

What is your clasification of target gun? Are these off the shelf rifles that you consider a target gun or a rifle that has been rebarreled? Myself personally, I do not turn necks except for my competition rifles. In regards to say my Rem 700's that have been rebarrelled I have not turned necks. I shoot them as they come. I consider them fun guns and take what they will give me.

The custom builds, I put EVERY effort to make them the best they can be.

In a chambered aftermarket barrel I think it is GOLD knowing the diameter of the neck and freebore. Knowing that you have an idea what you are up against when it comes time to reload.

Target guns that I use for benchrest hunter class shooting, have used two, Rem 700 HV factory rifle in 222 rem only thing I have done to them is bedding, Jewell trigger, NF BR scope 12by42 using lapua brass,that has had primer pockets uniformed, and necks turned, 53gr fb bullets.
The other 222 Rem is a 40x, rem 2 oz trigger
These two rifles will shoot 1/4moa in good conditions the 40 x does not shoot any better than the factory HV 700.
The best shooting custom I use is a 223 Rem Barnard,Tru-flite 1/7 twist, very accurate rifle have shot once .290 group at 300y
If you read the articale on the Houston Warehouse Virgil mentioned after prepping, brass made groups shrink from .050 " at 100y to .025" that is a amazing reduction in group size. I did some buisness with Don Giraci a year ago and had some long talks with him and asking many questions
about the Houston Warehouse where he did a lot of shooting. he was saying to me if you don,t do brass prep include turning necks you chances iof being a top benchrest shooters are slim.
Cycbb486 I have noticed you are re-barreling your 700 rem to 223 will you be using it in benchrest shooting.
manitou
 
Manitou thanks for clearing that up. I have read the article bit a while back must read it again. Another good book whether one shoots BR or not is the Benchrest Primer. So many articles (some of the best) about rifles and accuracy.

No the 223 is my just go out and plink fun rifle. The only competing I do is with the 6ppc's. Those custom actions are a blast to shoot with. Mine are right bolt, left port right eject. They are pretty quick to shoot. I am not the fastest out there but I can her 5 off in about 20 secs.
 
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