Fine Quality British Double Guns in Canadian Retail Scene

Londonshooter

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I'm always interested in what is out there in the Canadian market although lately feeling content with the guns I have already in my safes. Am curious as to what other vintage gun aficionados might think of the offerings from Epps or from Prophet River for instance. Epps has a Fred Beesley I lust for a bit. Also a Stephen Grant. Prophet River has a very nice refinished Thomas Bland hammer. To my surprise, T.E.C. has quite a selection of mostly 3rd tier British guns that until recently I was unaware of (any comment on the pricing??) https://www.tradeexcanada.com/produits/123 and also a crab knuckle Westley Richards converted from pinfire very similar to what Ashcroft recently posted in show-us-your-sxs-and-o/u's.
Gagnon has a 20 ga. Wilkes hammer that would be a nice acquisition for anyone although the re-done case looks like hell. Accuracy Plus is not a sponsor but have been watching a gun there too.
Just some fuel for discussion.
 
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The better guns at Prophet River such as the Woodward and the Churchill have been there for years, that pretty much tells the story on the price/value in today's market. The same applies at Ellwood Epps, some of their English doubles go back over 10 years, not sold! TEC just recently posted their English doubles, I don't know where they got this many at once, probably an overseas buy or perhaps a consignment. At these prices I think they will have them around for quite a while.
 
Jim, just my thoughts. A James Woodward is on same playing field with Purdey, H & H, and Boss among the top four names of brand quality. The sleeved barrels are a killer in this market for that gun though.
The Churchill is nice but is a boxlock and a person could buy a lot more gun today for the money.
We're on the same page in thinking the T.E.C. pricing is over the top.
Not very inspiring to observe such a reluctant market when a potential buyer is wondering if he could ever get his money back out from a vintage purchase or when considering refurbishing his classic gun.
 
A sleeved Purdey or Holland and Holland is comparable and although this gun will never gain value like an all original gun in the same condition, it might make a great shooter for someone who wants a prestige gun to hunt with. I guess nobody does. I think a problem here is that Woodward guns are largely unknown in Canada, no real brand recognition value. Churchill made boxlocks in all grades including the best and priced them similarly to their comparable sidelocks. They sold a lot of best quality boxlocks so I guess their customers agreed.
Prices on guns like this seemed to plateau in Canada about 10-11 years ago when people in the US were losing their homes and jobs and sellng anything that had value, prices in the US tanked and our dollar briefly went to +10% against the American dollar. After about five years of static valuations on good English doubles in Canada they have been steadily going down since to the point that today most people seem to be just hanging onto these guns rather than sell them at what they consider under their value. As the American economy recovered and our dollar went to pot many of our best guns once again started going south, and even overseas. There might be a few gems in TEC's offerings but without an extensive in hand evaluation it would be like rolling the dice, at those prices there is no wiggle room.
 
Truthfully I don’t usually pay much attention to their vintage gun offerings. And by that I mean all the named retailers. I’ve followed the addition of English guns to TEC since they started with it this time last year. I go into Gagnon and and Accuracy Plus with some regularity as they are close and I drop into Epps several times a year. It’s all always overpriced. If I was really trying to add to my collection, I’d pay close attention to the EE and get the word out to contacts about what I’m looking for. Because I’m really just after a couple very specific and unusual guns, I tend to watch the US more closely. Just better odds of finding them.
 
I don't know what you are looking for Canvasback but if it's a vintage side by side of best quality and superb condition the price in the US will be higher - much higher and in US dollars at that. By the time you get it in your hands the price will be about 55% higher in Canadian dollars. Yes, the selection is much greater down there but the really good ones are appreciated and priced accordingly. Then when you get it home if you find that the barrels are thin or grossly oversized or that the stock has a well disguised repair, then what? I love my vintage British doubles because the best ones are very special, I truly appreciate the amazing quality of the craftsmanship and I can afford quality that I can only dream of new. Now, a modern machine made side by side or over/under can be a good looking terrific shooting machine, but every one of the same make and model is identical other than the wood, they are just one of hundreds or thousands of attractive cookie cutter clones. I have some and I use them but they have no soul. Anyway, this thread is about British double guns, I find the larger and sometimes smaller gun shows in BC frequently produce marvellous vintage guns, sometimes at very fair prices. Two years ago at the Chilliwack show there was a beautiful a Purdey hammer .450 BPE double rifle and a gorgeous Alexander Henry hammerless double rifle, same calibre on the same table, $6500, take your pick. I was about 5 minutes too late. Both sold quickly and at least one showed up at the Calgary show a month later at three times the price and sold quickly. The year before that there was a very nice Dickson Round Action at $6000. It didn't last long either. They are out there but if you snooze you lose.
 
Ashcroft, your points are well understood and well taken. I have advised many of the exact same thing....a more vibrant market in the US means higher prices for the same products. However, the vintage guns I am after are not British, but Continental and while never say never, highly unlikely to be found in Canada. I look in Europe as much as I shop the USA. And my business was importing, so well familiar with all that entails.

I don't get to shows too often but your examples are exactly why shows are so useful to the vintage buyer. And a Dickson round action or Alexander Henry hammerless rifle or Purdey hammer rifle in the $6K Canadian range are strikingly good deals. The last Dickson round action I shouldered belonged to Terry Weiland and what a joy to hold that gun was. I gnash my teeth just thinking about those guns you mentioned. Any of them would take me off my plan in a hurry. Hahahaha!

As far as modern guns go, they just don't do it for me and for similar reasons that you note. I find that everything about the process of finding, buying, refurbishing if required and shooting vintage is infinitely preferable to the same process with a new gun. Yes, they have their place I suppose, but for me, I'd rather accept the limitations vintage puts on me and change the way I hunt. The loads, the distances and the expectations. I'm not trying to make hunting easier.
 
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I find that everything about the process of finding, buying, refurbishing if required and shooting vintage is infinitely preferable to the same process with a new gun. Yes, they have their place I suppose, but for me, I'd rather accept the limitations vintage puts on me and change the way I hunt. The loads, the distances and the expectations. I'm not trying to make hunting easier.

Well said, and I am the same boat....

But, I admit that I am not beyond altering chamber lengths or adding choke tubes/changing choke bores to make and old gun a bit more serviceable. Provided there is not collector value and the gun can take it.
 
Well said, and I am the same boat....

But, I admit that I am not beyond altering chamber lengths or adding choke tubes/changing choke bores to make and old gun a bit more serviceable. Provided there is not collector value and the gun can take it.

Dilly, I'll change chokes on any gun if it makes it more useful but I won't change chamber lengths anymore. I consider that to be a rookie mistake. LOL

One thing I find is so many vintage are choked full and mod, or full and full. And for the upland I do, those just aren't appropriate chokes, even when not using full shot cups.
 
I would point to the American site VintageDoubles.com as an example of how to properly describe a gun as compared to the CDN businesses mentioned above. All critical measurements that a diligent buyer is going to want to know before making a commitment. For instance:

Action:
top lever back action

Ejector: No
Barrel Type: Damascus
Barrel Length: 30"
Chamber Length: 2 5/8"
Proof:
Nitro: 2 5/8"
Choke:
Left: Cyl.
Right: Cyl.

Minimum Wall Thickness:
Left: .039
Right: .039LOP: 14 1/4" (13 3/8"" original wood)
Drop:
Comb: 1 5/8"
Heel: 2 9/16"
Cast Off: 3/16"
Cast On:

Weight: 8 lbs. 8 oz.
FFL Required: No
 
Dilly, I'll change chokes on any gun if it makes it more useful but I won't change chamber lengths anymore. I consider that to be a rookie mistake. LOL

One thing I find is so many vintage are choked full and mod, or full and full. And for the upland I do, those just aren't appropriate chokes, even when not using full shot cups.

I played with spreader wads. They can turn a full choke into a cylinder choke. Might be something to look into. I dont have any left unfortunately
 
I would point to the American site VintageDoubles.com as an example of how to properly describe a gun as compared to the CDN businesses mentioned above. All critical measurements that a diligent buyer is going to want to know before making a commitment. For instance:

Action:
top lever back action

Ejector: No
Barrel Type: Damascus
Barrel Length: 30"
Chamber Length: 2 5/8"
Proof:
Nitro: 2 5/8"
Choke:
Left: Cyl.
Right: Cyl.

Minimum Wall Thickness:
Left: .039
Right: .039LOP: 14 1/4" (13 3/8"" original wood)
Drop:
Comb: 1 5/8"
Heel: 2 9/16"
Cast Off: 3/16"
Cast On:

Weight: 8 lbs. 8 oz.
FFL Required: No

John, you've hit the nail on the head in picking a retailer who knows how to do it. Kirby is a delight to speak with, his descriptions and photographs are done with the serious buyer in mind and he is clear and concise about condition and problems.

So easy to do and yet so hard for most retailers to understand why they should be doing it. They would sell more guns! Same with listing on the EE but many don't have the tools required for all the measuremnts...still, decent photos and an attempt at a proper description would go a long way.
 
I played with spreader wads. They can turn a full choke into a cylinder choke. Might be something to look into. I don't have any left unfortunately

I don't reload at the moment and Polywad doesn't have a Canadian distributor. I carefully read threads about spreaders on US sites. There are definitely pros but also some cons. One of the most talked about is flyers that can hit your dog.
 
Canvasback, I can see where your search for European guns, other than Spanish guns ( some great underappreciated guns here ) and old Belgian hardware store guns bears little fruit in Canada, but if you know what quality looks like, they can occasionally be found. I go to about 4-5 medium and large gun shows in BC each year with tables at 2 or 3 and I'm always examining any gun with two barrels that I see. On average here I see at least one or two, maybe more, really fine European guns each year, scarce and very random but they are there. These are mostly Belgian, German, Austrian in origin and with names unfamiliar to most, including me, but the quality is unmistakable. And this isn't counting drillings of which there are always fine examples at every show, usually going begging. Here again almost nobody has the specific knowledge on these guns so some real gems sell at give away prices.
I think Canada is traditionally a country of riflemen and other than regional interest, field shotguns other than for waterfowl has always been low. This translates to retail stores, their products and the customers they serve. Demand for fine side by side field guns is very low, stocking prices are very high, the business and therefore the interest just isn't there. The average store is just selling a product, no different than bicycles, fishing rods or potatoes. The employees or even the owner have no interest in or knowledge of old guns, anything that requires technical expertise isn't in their job description so they mostly avoud them. As you know, the barrels are the most critical part of these old guns and to acquire the measuring tools, learn how to use them, gain the experience to apply this knowledge takes years, interest and a large financial and educational investment. Most have no knowledge of nor understand the significance of Proof. Only a huge store with access to a qualified gunsmith, like Ellwood Epps or a specialty business like Vintage Doubles in Wenatchee Washington ( just a half day drive south of me) have these resources. None of us on this thread would dream of buying a gun like these on line, based only on a few pictures, a verbal but uninformed description and hope. I think TEC, unless they can properly vet their English guns are doomed to disappointment. One pitfall that I immediately see with these guns if they have been imported from Europe ( like the Swedish buyback) is that many may be out of proof, maybe far out. These can't be sold in Britain or Europe and the default is to sell them to North America, they don't know and don't care, if it goes bang they will buy it.
Regarding the spreader loads, I make my own and I'm very pleased with the results on paper and in the field. The only way to really know is to pattern several different ones in your gun.
John, I wish you hadn't mentioned that little Wilkes! You know I'm trying to quit.
 
Ashcroft, I have ended up spending more time studying Continental guns, than I have English. And by that I mean the pre war output of France, Belgium, Germany, Austria and Prague, in what is now the Czech Republic. Italian and Spanish get left for others.

And as you have alluded to in a couple of your posts, by focusing in those areas of production I get to hunt with guns that cost me a fraction of what it would cost to have one built today. The Continental guns, if you know what to look for, are an even better deal than British. Unless of course one plans to sell, not use. Because the current price is all about name recognition. First is the maker (Purdey) and second is the gun-making centre of origin (London? Liege? St. Etienne?). Actual build quality is something most can't recognize and current condition most can't take the measurements that really tell you.

Liege products are great because most associate Belgium with low end. Fine with me. I like the German guns built for overseas (read American) markets where emulating the British style was the objective, rather than the seriously Germanic styles. Haven't seen a gun from Praha (Prague) I haven't fallen in love with. And I have a little affliction/affection for some of the more interesting French designs.
 
I've never knowingly seen a Prague made gun here and very few French guns. A few Darne guns of various grades and I at one time had a Charlin and a Manufrance ideal. Couldn't get used to the Charlin, it handled great to swing but felt awkward to me to open and close. Loved the action on the Ideal, hated the mickey mouse sliding safety. The one I had was a quite high grade 16 and the left barrel had very shallow rifling, intended as a very close range spreader. Unfortunately it had some very bad pitting so i used it with 20 ga chamber inserts which was a little inconvenient. Fabulous little wand though, I'm still sort of on the lookout for a nice replacement. Sort of. A couple of years ago the guy at the tables next to me had the nicest Belgian hammerless two barrelled 16 gauge, cased. One set of barrels around 29", the other set about 32", different chokes in each set of course. For a day and a half I procrastinated, then my buddy came along and bought it for $1200! Oh well, you can't have 'em all.
 
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I've never knowingly seen a Prague made gun here and very few French guns. A few Darne guns of various grades and I at one time had a Charlin and a Manufrance ideal. Couldn't get used to the Charlin, it handled great but felt awkward to me. Loved the action on the Ideal,hated the mickey mouse sliding safety.

Have a Lovena, came close on a Nowotny (The Purdey of Europe), have a high grade Ideal and love it. LOL Aside from the safety! You'd think that in 97 years of production they'd get that one figured out. Nope. Also have a very nice Roblin a Paris sidelock with Bernard barrels. I've purchased about 5 other Ideals, all in 16, looking for one to match my 12. They've all gone down the road and my search continues.
 
I've never knowingly seen a Prague made gun here and very few French guns. A few Darne guns of various grades and I at one time had a Charlin and a Manufrance ideal. Couldn't get used to the Charlin, it handled great to swing but felt awkward to me to open and close. Loved the action on the Ideal, hated the mickey mouse sliding safety. The one I had was a quite high grade 16 and the left barrel had very shallow rifling, intended as a very close range spreader. Unfortunately it had some very bad pitting so i used it with 20 ga chamber inserts which was a little inconvenient. Fabulous little wand though, I'm still sort of on the lookout for a nice replacement. Sort of. A couple of years ago the guy at the tables next to me had the nicest Belgian hammerless two barrelled 16 gauge, cased. One set of barrels around 29", the other set about 32", different chokes in each set of course. For a day and a half I procrastinated, then my buddy came along and bought it for $1200! Oh well, you can't have 'em all.

I have a Defourny and a no name Belgian in with Chris Dawe. Actually I have the Defourny back. Both simple boxlocks and not best guns by any means. But both are extremely well made and handle beautifully afield. They are the "best" guns" anyone actually needs. And as your example demonstrates, they won't fetch much on the open market. Seeing as i like to hunt my guns, not invest in them, those low prices work to my advantage as a buyer of Continental vintage shotguns.
 
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