MauserMike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
The boxlock ruins it for me on that shot 
Fine side by sides -- what's your fantasy?
- Thread starter Claybuster
- Start date
This is a thread close to my heart. For aeons now, I have been trying to define my perfect grouse gun, with an eye towards having her built as a custom gun (there apparently exists no off - the - shelf gun which meets my ideal).
I have the gun pretty much specified, and in great detail. For example, for the barrel tubes alone I have determined that in order to obtain the weight, length, strength, resilience and balance point required, with the wall thickness I want, a particular type of Bohler steel will be required.
Frame dimensions and weight, bolting configuration and geometry, lock type, trigger weights and even the density of the walnut required have all been given careful consideration. All the trade offs and compromises have been weighed. When I did not understand something, I went on a quest to discover its significance. Even now I am not sure that I have made all the right decisions. I am not even sure that I have covered all the bases, but I am confident that I could chat with a good gunmaker and have him understand my intent and specifications.
All of this is in pursuit of the gun with the perfect balance for my stature, strength, reactions and preferences. It is all about handling and balance, and those are very personal tastes.
I can only judge and make decisions based on personal experience. My preferences have tended towards the English model, with Beesley style locks as modified by Henry Atkin. All my efforts at specification have been directed towards a gun of this type.
Imagine, then, my surprise and dismay as I discovered (gradually) that I think I prefer the handling characteristics of the Scottish round action guns. I am not 100% sure about this yet, and it seems a little like heresy, but for the pursuit of grouse a gun in the style of John Dickson may suit me better than one in the style of James Purdey or Harris Holland.
Oh, well. Back to the drawing board. The relationship between all the bits and pieces of the round action gun are different than those of the English sidelock, and I don't yet understand why.
The moral of the story is beware of what you wish for, lest you get it. It is, after all, difficult to be educated enough to know what you really want.
Sharptail
I have the gun pretty much specified, and in great detail. For example, for the barrel tubes alone I have determined that in order to obtain the weight, length, strength, resilience and balance point required, with the wall thickness I want, a particular type of Bohler steel will be required.
Frame dimensions and weight, bolting configuration and geometry, lock type, trigger weights and even the density of the walnut required have all been given careful consideration. All the trade offs and compromises have been weighed. When I did not understand something, I went on a quest to discover its significance. Even now I am not sure that I have made all the right decisions. I am not even sure that I have covered all the bases, but I am confident that I could chat with a good gunmaker and have him understand my intent and specifications.
All of this is in pursuit of the gun with the perfect balance for my stature, strength, reactions and preferences. It is all about handling and balance, and those are very personal tastes.
I can only judge and make decisions based on personal experience. My preferences have tended towards the English model, with Beesley style locks as modified by Henry Atkin. All my efforts at specification have been directed towards a gun of this type.
Imagine, then, my surprise and dismay as I discovered (gradually) that I think I prefer the handling characteristics of the Scottish round action guns. I am not 100% sure about this yet, and it seems a little like heresy, but for the pursuit of grouse a gun in the style of John Dickson may suit me better than one in the style of James Purdey or Harris Holland.
Oh, well. Back to the drawing board. The relationship between all the bits and pieces of the round action gun are different than those of the English sidelock, and I don't yet understand why.
The moral of the story is beware of what you wish for, lest you get it. It is, after all, difficult to be educated enough to know what you really want.
Sharptail
Ahsan Ahmed
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I had always assumed (mistakenly of course) that H&W only produced rifles and mostly double rifles at that. Just never ocurred to me that they may have made/are making shotguns too. Google time....
I know that feeling. The gun I bought a decade ago is still nice but not what I would order today.
Sharptail; You can have the best of two worlds then. Check out the relatively new H & H round action guns. I had opportunity to handle and examine them in Reno last winter and they are very sweet. Also very expensive.
For the money it is hard to beat the AYA sidelock XXV, (Churchill knock off) as an upland gun. Very fast. A friend of mine used a pair for several years to determine if it was his "ideal" gun conformation for all his hunting. If I recall he had both the box lock and sidelock versions to see if he had a preference. When he was satisfied he then ordered either two Churchills or two sets of barrels for a single Churchill gun. He had problems with the Churchill barrels and had to have Churchill rebarrell. He had specified tubes strong enough for duck loads of a certain type but over the first seasons use the barrels started to show signs of bulging near the muzzles. The AYA's gave him zero problems with the same loads. I don't think he had any problems with the returned Churchill's after re-barreling but I have not spoken to him for over 25 years.
For the money it is hard to beat the AYA sidelock XXV, (Churchill knock off) as an upland gun. Very fast. A friend of mine used a pair for several years to determine if it was his "ideal" gun conformation for all his hunting. If I recall he had both the box lock and sidelock versions to see if he had a preference. When he was satisfied he then ordered either two Churchills or two sets of barrels for a single Churchill gun. He had problems with the Churchill barrels and had to have Churchill rebarrell. He had specified tubes strong enough for duck loads of a certain type but over the first seasons use the barrels started to show signs of bulging near the muzzles. The AYA's gave him zero problems with the same loads. I don't think he had any problems with the returned Churchill's after re-barreling but I have not spoken to him for over 25 years.
In a fantasy world:
12 gauge 3" chamber
Left swinging action release
Top tang safety
24" barrels, both Imp Cyl/Mod
Dual brass beads, no raised rib
2 piece stock set, one English, the other pistol grip
Brass Sling swivels with the front welded to the barrels not on the foregrip
Internal hammer
Extractors
Double trigger
checkered Walnut and blued, no engraving.
More for utility than style.
12 gauge 3" chamber
Left swinging action release
Top tang safety
24" barrels, both Imp Cyl/Mod
Dual brass beads, no raised rib
2 piece stock set, one English, the other pistol grip
Brass Sling swivels with the front welded to the barrels not on the foregrip
Internal hammer
Extractors
Double trigger
checkered Walnut and blued, no engraving.
More for utility than style.
Lots of great ideas here. I’ve thought about this subject at length although not in the same depth as Sharptail.
In my fantasy scenario I would be looking for a round body trigger plate or boxlock action. That would probably mean a maker in the U.K. most likely McKay Brown although the Dickson round action or McNaughton bar-in-wood would be serious contenders.
It would be a 12 gauge 2-3/4" with two triggers and an auto safety. I’d request a minimum weight of 6-1/2 pounds and a maximum of 6-3/4 (truth be told as long as it’s under 7lbs I’d be happy.) The gun would not be self-opening.
Where I run into my dilemma is the barrels. I have a sxs grouse gun with 28” barrels choked skeet and light modified. What I feel the need for is a longer range gun for open field shooting and would want 30” barrels choked light modified and improved modified.
What I would ask is whether I could get two barrels of different lengths and chokes that would weigh the same. If possible I’d want a 28” choked skeet and light modified and a 30” set choked LM and IM. If not then I’d go with a two barrel set with these constrictions but specify 30” for both. The barrels would have concave ribs and a single brass bead.
The stock would be straight grip, splinter forend, no recoil pad. I like nice but not extravagant wood. Strong contrasting grain, not too much marble cake but with a darker oil finish. Some stocks including those on the McKay Brown site are too heavily figured. The wood needs to compliment the gun, not overwhelm it and must be strong in the wrist above all else.
Same with engraving. No gold inlays, animals or Bulino. Standard scroll however isn’t quite enough. I tend toward bold scroll, bouquet, oak leaf even acanthus but I’d want to see what it looked like in person if possible. Pictures don’t always tell the story. I want the action colour case hardened and the furniture blued. (Note, when talking about an English gun furniture refers to the small parts of the gun, trigger guard, top lever, safety, etc.)
During the ordering the balance point would be specified at the hinge pin which is slightly further back than on my current guns. Years of clay shooting has caused me to appreciate the benefits of a touch of forward weight but because this is a fantasy my intention would be to return to the maker when the gun is close to ready and have the balance and stock adjusted to my satisfaction.
Visually this would be a very understated, perhaps dull looking gun to some. But the sxs that have always drawn my attention are the less garish ones.
In my fantasy scenario I would be looking for a round body trigger plate or boxlock action. That would probably mean a maker in the U.K. most likely McKay Brown although the Dickson round action or McNaughton bar-in-wood would be serious contenders.
It would be a 12 gauge 2-3/4" with two triggers and an auto safety. I’d request a minimum weight of 6-1/2 pounds and a maximum of 6-3/4 (truth be told as long as it’s under 7lbs I’d be happy.) The gun would not be self-opening.
Where I run into my dilemma is the barrels. I have a sxs grouse gun with 28” barrels choked skeet and light modified. What I feel the need for is a longer range gun for open field shooting and would want 30” barrels choked light modified and improved modified.
What I would ask is whether I could get two barrels of different lengths and chokes that would weigh the same. If possible I’d want a 28” choked skeet and light modified and a 30” set choked LM and IM. If not then I’d go with a two barrel set with these constrictions but specify 30” for both. The barrels would have concave ribs and a single brass bead.
The stock would be straight grip, splinter forend, no recoil pad. I like nice but not extravagant wood. Strong contrasting grain, not too much marble cake but with a darker oil finish. Some stocks including those on the McKay Brown site are too heavily figured. The wood needs to compliment the gun, not overwhelm it and must be strong in the wrist above all else.
Same with engraving. No gold inlays, animals or Bulino. Standard scroll however isn’t quite enough. I tend toward bold scroll, bouquet, oak leaf even acanthus but I’d want to see what it looked like in person if possible. Pictures don’t always tell the story. I want the action colour case hardened and the furniture blued. (Note, when talking about an English gun furniture refers to the small parts of the gun, trigger guard, top lever, safety, etc.)
During the ordering the balance point would be specified at the hinge pin which is slightly further back than on my current guns. Years of clay shooting has caused me to appreciate the benefits of a touch of forward weight but because this is a fantasy my intention would be to return to the maker when the gun is close to ready and have the balance and stock adjusted to my satisfaction.
Visually this would be a very understated, perhaps dull looking gun to some. But the sxs that have always drawn my attention are the less garish ones.
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
Geez CB, you've made my head hurt
I guess it would all depend on "how big" a sum of money ... and does it
have to be just one ?
For just one, and lots of $$$ probably a Piotti ( don't think Ivo Fabbri is making SxS's lately ) likey a 28" barelled 20ga. sidelock, choked .005" and .017", straight stocked, double triggers with front articulated . Although I like the look of a checkered butt, I prefer a leather- covered pad for upland work. Rose & scroll engraving, deep enough so it doesn't look scratched on, with the only gold being the line on the cocking indicator, colour case hardened, blued furniture. Highly-figured walnut, either European or Circassian, picked from their supply, but straight-grained through the hand ... and a little on the darker, as opposed to lighter side. Plain, point checkering, functional, at their equivalent of 24 lpi. About 6-1/2 lbs, balanced through or barely ahead of the hinge pin. Fitted oak & leather case, of course, with apprporiate turnscrews, oil bottle, all the usual trimmings, plus a canvas travel cover. Of course I'd have to go for the usual initial fitting, but then a shoot-to-fit patterning sesssion before final finish.
For two lesser priced, an unmatched pair of SxS's, probably AyA. The one like that described above in 20 ga, a No. 1 or No. 2. The second, something like their Mod. 56, extra heavy-framed in a 12 ga. 30" or 32" raised cross filed flat rib version, non-auto safety, with single trigger and pistol grip, palm swell stock for clays. Choked .015" and .027". I'm good with extractors.
I guess it would all depend on "how big" a sum of money ... and does it
have to be just one ?
For just one, and lots of $$$ probably a Piotti ( don't think Ivo Fabbri is making SxS's lately ) likey a 28" barelled 20ga. sidelock, choked .005" and .017", straight stocked, double triggers with front articulated . Although I like the look of a checkered butt, I prefer a leather- covered pad for upland work. Rose & scroll engraving, deep enough so it doesn't look scratched on, with the only gold being the line on the cocking indicator, colour case hardened, blued furniture. Highly-figured walnut, either European or Circassian, picked from their supply, but straight-grained through the hand ... and a little on the darker, as opposed to lighter side. Plain, point checkering, functional, at their equivalent of 24 lpi. About 6-1/2 lbs, balanced through or barely ahead of the hinge pin. Fitted oak & leather case, of course, with apprporiate turnscrews, oil bottle, all the usual trimmings, plus a canvas travel cover. Of course I'd have to go for the usual initial fitting, but then a shoot-to-fit patterning sesssion before final finish.
For two lesser priced, an unmatched pair of SxS's, probably AyA. The one like that described above in 20 ga, a No. 1 or No. 2. The second, something like their Mod. 56, extra heavy-framed in a 12 ga. 30" or 32" raised cross filed flat rib version, non-auto safety, with single trigger and pistol grip, palm swell stock for clays. Choked .015" and .027". I'm good with extractors.
The original specs were one gun no limit but hey it's just a fantasy.
But your post shows just how deep the detail can get. To keep my post from stretching the band width I left out things like chequering, rolled trigger guard, the case, accessories whether to have a stock oval and if so what to engrave on it, etc. The list becomes almost endless and if you don't specify then the maker just guesses. At many of the English makers they want to know what shells you use so they can pattern with them.
Two guns, more limited finances? Hmmm....I'd probably go to Famars and order a pair of Zeus, one in 12 gauge and 28. If further limited by money I'd be in Eibar ordering a pair of Grullas or Arrietas in the same gauges. Even if I didn't order guns there I'd just like to back to the Basque country.
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
CB ... I hear 'ya.
I wouldn't mind a a chance at brushing up on my Espanol a little either.
Tapas y vino tinto ein le tardes ... yo querra mucho !
I wouldn't mind a a chance at brushing up on my Espanol a little either.
Tapas y vino tinto ein le tardes ... yo querra mucho !
Mi tambien amigo.
Max Owner
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You guy's need to get a room.
After that line, I hope no one translates...................
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Nah, the rooms at the Hotel Arrate (Eibar's finest hotel and that is damning with faint praise) are far too small.You guy's need to get a room.
But it's walking distance to Grulla, Garbi, AyA and Arrizabalaga, a short drive to Ugartechea, Arrieta and Kemen and just around the corner from the legendary Cafe Arkupe.
Mine isn't. But after I ordered my gun in the U.K. I'd hop a plane down to Bilbao to visit. I like Northern Spain.
And Eibar is where fantasy can become reality.
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beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
Spoken like a true Brit ... long live the Empire !
