Fireforming Brass.

FortHunter

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So I decided to hunt with my 6 Creed this WT season, when starting my load development I switched bullets and didnt correctly adjust my bullet seating die. Resulted in crushing the shoulder on 2 pieces of brass. Id like to save the 2 pieces I wrecked. Is it possible to fireform the brass back to spec. Brass is pictures below.
Left to right-
1. Loaded round 2. Fired piece of brass 3. Crushed shoulder 4. Crushed shoulder.
1000003490.jpg

Both pieces that had the shoulders crushed still chamber in my rifle. If I was to fireform them what are some recommended methods of doing so.

Thanks in advance.
 
So I decided to hunt with my 6 Creed this WT season, when starting my load development I switched bullets and didnt correctly adjust my bullet seating die. Resulted in crushing the shoulder on 2 pieces of brass. Id like to save the 2 pieces I wrecked. Is it possible to fireform the brass back to spec. Brass is pictures below.
Left to right-
1. Loaded round 2. Fired piece of brass 3. Crushed shoulder 4. Crushed shoulder.
View attachment 1052895

Both pieces that had the shoulders crushed still chamber in my rifle. If I was to fireform them what are some recommended methods of doing so.

Thanks in advance.
Size again, load and shoot as foulers, offhand practice or something that doesn’t matter mch.
 
FortHunter - be aware that simply chambering a rimless cartridge into a chamber and firing it, will likely not "fire-form" it properly - there is nothing to hold the case firmly back to the bolt face - the firing pin will push the case as far forward as it can, before setting off the primer - meaning, your case shoulders will be slightly shorter than the chamber shoulders - if the case head did not separate from the case. You can read of guys seating bullets very long - to be hard into the rifling, as a way to hold that case back to the bolt face when firing (you probably want to reduce your load to do that!) and others will mention to oversize the neck and then bring it back down to fit your chamber - in effect creating a "false shoulder" that will prevent the case from moving forward during the firing pin strike - I think that case neck is typically thinner material than the case walls near the case head - so during the firing sequence, it is probable that the case neck and front part of the case will grab tightly to the chamber wall and hold it (due to pressure rise) and resulting in the case head getting pushed back solidly to the bolt face - either the brass case walls will have stretched, or the case head will have seperated, or nearly so. Then, subsequent Full Length resizing that pushes the case shoulder too far back will simply repeat that process, until one DOES get case head separation.

It is a similar issue with belted or rimmed cases - it is sometimes desirable to transfer the headspace to the case shoulder - not to rely on the case rim or case belt for headspace control - to resist the forward movement of the case due to the firing pin strike. Make your cases fit your chamber, and the whole issue of incipient case head separation goes away (mostly).

As a "home done" check - so normal computer printer paper is circa 0.004" thick - you actually want about half of that clearance between case shoulder and chamber shoulder - 0.002"- MAXIMUM. So, set a case on a piece of paper and draw a circle - cut that out or be slightly smaller than the case head. Insert that between the bolt face and the brass case - if it chambers (bolt locks shut) you have circa 0.004" excess clearance - about double what you want to have, for maximum accuracy. When barrel chambers are cut, they are typically using a GO gauge (minimum length) and a NOGO gauge (often 0.004" longer than minimum). for best "accuracy", you want to be closer to GO than to NOGO. There is usually a third gauge - called FIELD - that is MAXIMUM length - so a chamber between GO and FIELD is "safe" to fire, but not necessarily the "best" fit for "most accurate".
 
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FortHunter - be aware that simply chambering a rimless cartridge into a chamber and firing it, will likely not "fire-form" it properly - there is nothing to hold the case firmly back to the bolt face - the firing pin will push the case as far forward as it can, before setting off the primer - meaning, your case shoulders will be slightly shorter than the chamber shoulders - if the case head did not separate from the case. You can read of guys seating bullets very long - to be hard into the rifling, as a way to hold that case back to the bolt face when firing (you probably want to reduce your load to do that!) and others will mention to oversize the neck and then bring it back down to fit your chamber - in effect creating a "false shoulder" that will prevent the case from moving forward during the firing pin strike - I think that case neck is typically thinner material than the case walls near the case head - so during the firing sequence, it is probable that the case neck and front part of the case will grab tightly to the chamber wall and hold it (due to pressure rise) and resulting in the case head getting pushed back solidly to the bolt face - either the brass case walls will have stretched, or the case head will have seperated, or nearly so. Then, subsequent Full Length resizing that pushes the case shoulder too far back will simply repeat that process, until one DOES get case head separation.

It is a similar issue with belted or rimmed cases - it is sometimes desirable to transfer the headspace to the case shoulder - not to rely on the case rim or case belt for headspace control - to resist the forward movement of the case due to the firing pin strike. Make your cases fit your chamber, and the whole issue of incipient case head separation goes away (mostly).

As a "home done" check - so normal computer printer paper is circa 0.004" thick - you actually want about half of that clearance between case shoulder and chamber shoulder - 0.002"- MAXIMUM. So, set a case on a piece of paper and draw a circle - cut that out or be slightly smaller than the case head. Insert that between the bolt face and the brass case - if it chambers (bolt locks shut) you have circa 0.004" excess clearance - about double what you want to have, for maximum accuracy. When barrel chambers are cut, they are typically using a GO gauge (minimum length) and a NOGO gauge (often 0.004" longer than minimum). for best "accuracy", you want to be closer to GO than to NOGO. There is usually a third gauge - called FIELD - that is MAXIMUM length - so a chamber between GO and FIELD is "safe" to fire, but not necessarily the "best" fit for "most accurate".
Thanks for the in depth response. By oversize the neck do you mean expanding it to 6.5mm then back to 6mm?

I'll definitely try the paper to check shoulder setback before any loading or firing.

Do you have a head space gauge so that you can compare to "standard" spec?

-.006" is substantial and firing may lead to case head separation.
I do not have any head space gauges. I have the drawings from the Smith that chambered the barrel and built the rifle as well as a hornady O.A.L. gauge but I dont think that will help me here.

Id rather toss the brass than risk having a case separation in my gun.
 
I see on the FIELD gauge that I have for 30-06 that it is 0.010 longer than the 30-06 GO gauge - it is apparently "safe to fire" between those dimensions, but the rifle should be taken out of service if it closes on a FIELD gauge - I understand that Canada and Australia may have relaxed their maximum FIELD gauge dimensions during WWII for their .303 British rifles. However, those militaries typically fire the brass once, they typically do not reload those - but we do - sometimes many times.
 
Thanks for the in depth response. By oversize the neck do you mean expanding it to 6.5mm then back to 6mm?

I'll definitely try the paper to check shoulder setback before any loading or firing.


I do not have any head space gauges. I have the drawings from the Smith that chambered the barrel and built the rifle as well as a hornady O.A.L. gauge but I dont think that will help me here.

Id rather toss the brass than risk having a case separation in my gun.
My only experience at doing this was to make 9.3x57 cases from 8x57 cases - I sized up the case mouth until the case was virtually straight walls, then into the 9.3x57 die to get the mouth diameter correct. I turned the sizing die down a bit at a time and checked that case each time in the rifle - for the first many times the bolt would not close - the case shoulder was too far out - eventually I got it so perhaps 1/16 turn of the die made the difference between whether this bolt would close or not. The dies that I used at maximum diameter were for a .41 Magnum pistol, and the finished case was for a 9.3 mm - so I am not really certain "how much" false shoulder is necessary to resist the firing pin strike.

If I was "fire forming", I have a selection of dies to chose from - it is probable that I would go up using at least .338 die or more to re-size a .30 caliber or less case - sort of based on what you have available and that you understand what you are trying to achieve. I might be excessive for the false shoulder - maybe what you propose is fine.

I do not own headspace gauges for 9.3x57, so I really do not know if this chamber is to spec or not - but I am quite sure that those cases fit to that chamber.
 
So I decided to hunt with my 6 Creed this WT season, when starting my load development I switched bullets and didnt correctly adjust my bullet seating die. Resulted in crushing the shoulder on 2 pieces of brass. Id like to save the 2 pieces I wrecked. Is it possible to fireform the brass back to spec. Brass is pictures below.
Left to right-
1. Loaded round 2. Fired piece of brass 3. Crushed shoulder 4. Crushed shoulder.
View attachment 1052895

Both pieces that had the shoulders crushed still chamber in my rifle. If I was to fireform them what are some recommended methods of doing so.

Thanks in advance.
You can also do it by using 12 or 13 grains of fast burning pistol or shotgun powder, ad some cotton wadding to cover the powder charge then fill with cream of wheat or corn meal ad some more wadding to seal. I use this method for fire forming 30-30 brass into .375 Winchester cases, works well, will easily punch out your shoulders.
 
^ Yes, I "blew out" some 7mm Rem Mag cases into 458 Win Mag cases using the Cream of Wheat (COW) method - that still will rely on something to position the case correctly - tight enough to bolt face and held there to resist the firing pin strike - it is typical that the extractor claw will not do that - even on a Mauser type bolt action rifle. I was using Unique powder - the advantage is that no bullet is needed for the first go around - but you do need an appropriate powder (a fast burning one), and you will "waste" a primer when doing that. The chamber that I used was brand new - a GO gauge closed easily but a NOGO gauge would not. So, I relied on the chamber "headspace" set up to fire form those cases.
 
So i stuck a piece of masking tape on the base of the brass with damaged shoulders. It was still able to close but had a decent amount of resistance. I also tried it with a loades round and was also able to close the action. There was more resistance with the damages brass though.

Maybe im resizing my brass to much in general? I just follow the steps in the instruction booklet that comes with the dies.

Short of getting a tool to measure shoulder setback dont think im going to get much more info what the setback is. Feeling more confident in loading up min load rounds and using those to fireform the brass back.
 
So i stuck a piece of masking tape on the base of the brass with damaged shoulders. It was still able to close but had a decent amount of resistance. I also tried it with a loades round and was also able to close the action. There was more resistance with the damages brass though.

Maybe im resizing my brass to much in general? I just follow the steps in the instruction booklet that comes with the dies.

Short of getting a tool to measure shoulder setback dont think im going to get much more info what the setback is. Feeling more confident in loading up min load rounds and using those to fireform the brass back.
You can use a gauge such as this to help you set your case shoulder back properly to minimize headspace and extend brass life.
.002" is a good setback depth to try, just confirm in your rifle after resizing.

Lock‑N‑Load® Headspace Comparator & Anvil Base Kit ‑ Hornady Manufacturing, Inc https://www.hornady.com/headspace-bushings#!/
 
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