Can someone share tips/loads and suggestions for fireforming .30-06 brass in an AI chamber? Do you need to have the bullet touching the lands in order to prevent excessive flow of brass? I've heard of using a plug of some sort instead of a bullet, but can't seem to recall where I read it. What is the most efficient/economical way to do this? Thanks.
Fireforming for .30-06 AI
- Thread starter 1899
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
The cream of wheat, usually called the COW method, is the cheapest and I say easiest way to fireform brass.
First start by ensuring that the orig '06 case headspaces tightly in the AI chamber. That is the definition of a true Ackley chamber - standard ammo will headspace properly.
If not you will need to form a false shoulder by first necking up then back down. Neck down so that the bolt gets stiff just before it fully closes. Zero headspace.
Then just put in 10 to 12gr of HP38/Win 231 (any fast pistol or SG powder can be used but load amounts will vary greatly from the above. Just need to start low and work up). I use a lee scoop. Fill to the base of the neck with non instant COW, stuff a piece of paper towel in the neck to hold everything in place. Fire safely. Voila, one fireformed case.
Any Large primer can be used. I use old or mystery gunshow ones. Be careful that the COW does not get wet. It will solidify and that is dangerous.
Jerry
First start by ensuring that the orig '06 case headspaces tightly in the AI chamber. That is the definition of a true Ackley chamber - standard ammo will headspace properly.
If not you will need to form a false shoulder by first necking up then back down. Neck down so that the bolt gets stiff just before it fully closes. Zero headspace.
Then just put in 10 to 12gr of HP38/Win 231 (any fast pistol or SG powder can be used but load amounts will vary greatly from the above. Just need to start low and work up). I use a lee scoop. Fill to the base of the neck with non instant COW, stuff a piece of paper towel in the neck to hold everything in place. Fire safely. Voila, one fireformed case.
Any Large primer can be used. I use old or mystery gunshow ones. Be careful that the COW does not get wet. It will solidify and that is dangerous.
Jerry
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For AI fireforming, I use this procedure:I prime the brass
I charge it with a bit of BUllseye, or whatever pistol powder I have around, especially if I have no frther need of the powder
i then fill the rest of the case with Cream of Wheat
and stick a bit of tissue in the neck to make a 'bullet"
I will shoot the shell, and examine the fired case. If it is NOT perfectly formed, wiht nice, square shoulders, I increase the charge until it is perfectly formed.
Remember that although a big charge of fast burning pistol powder wil blow your gun up, a small charge will not!
I sit in my barn and fireform, but it DOES make a mess, and you need to clean out the chamber and barrel a bit because the COW makes a mess.
The other way is to use the lowest charge (fopr 30-06-NOT 30-06 AI) of some powder like 4895, and seat the bullets out until they touch the rilfeing.
Nice cases, either way. One is more fun and less messy
But you wear your barrel if you do alot!Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
There is no way to know for sure unless the brass requires firm bolt pressure at closing. You can use a go/no go guage and compare that to your brass.
If the brass is too short, it will not fire as there isn't enough firing pin protrusion. Chamber a primed but empty case and pop the primer. If the primer looks like it was hit normally, should be ok. If a very light dimple, you should neck up then down to get headspace tight.
If not, there could be excessive stretching in the web area which will lead to short case life.
Jerry
If the brass is too short, it will not fire as there isn't enough firing pin protrusion. Chamber a primed but empty case and pop the primer. If the primer looks like it was hit normally, should be ok. If a very light dimple, you should neck up then down to get headspace tight.
If not, there could be excessive stretching in the web area which will lead to short case life.
Jerry
The best and most accurate way to fireform is to make sure the brass fits the chamber tightly to start with by ensuring the brass headspaces tightly in the chamber.
If the brass doesn't fit tightly, a false shoulder can be created to hold the brass tightly in the chamber for forming.
Good Luck
John
If the brass doesn't fit tightly, a false shoulder can be created to hold the brass tightly in the chamber for forming.
Good Luck
John
Put a piece of masking tape on the case head and try to close the bolt,it should close but with a little effort,then try 2 pieces it shouldn't close.If this works then just load and shoot,you can use the improved loads in the reg case.you will find your groups woun't change that much.Or if you have factory loads just shoot them.
I was just reading that one of the appealing factors of the ackley cartridges was that they can still shoot factory ammunition if your in a crunch. The part of the shoulder that the case headspaces on is in the same spot, its just that the body taper is reduced and the neck angle is different, but they headspace on the same spot.
Now the 30 gibbs is a different story, there are a couple different methods to fireforming brass for that one.
Brambles
Now the 30 gibbs is a different story, there are a couple different methods to fireforming brass for that one.
Brambles
I've never had any experience with fireforming a case to AI but I was wondering.................
If one of the advantages of the AI is the ability to shoot the original cartridge in the AI chamber, why is it necessary to use light loads and various projectiles besides real bullets to fireform the AI case?
If one of the advantages of the AI is the ability to shoot the original cartridge in the AI chamber, why is it necessary to use light loads and various projectiles besides real bullets to fireform the AI case?
Mauser98 said:
It is best NOT to use light loads in fireforming. Ackley was adamant about this. I knew him personally, spent time with him both at home and in his shop out back. He built three rifles for me, two were AIs. There were no if ands or buts about it, "Be sure to use good stiff loads when you fireform that thing!"
I have never used anything other than that and never had a moments problem.
Ted
Timely thread I have been tinkering with a buddies 30'06AI lately.
here is what I found.
I had to anneal the case neck and shoulder to get a decent fireform using the COW method(12gr. Red Dot) and sometimes it still requires firing a next to full house load before the shoulder sharpens up. We did however find that the annealed cases last longer and resist neck cracking for at least 2 to 4 reloads more than an un annealed case.
Here is a picture of the stages:
The one on the Left is a COW fireformed with 12gr. of Red Dot
The Middle is a COW fireformed with 12gr of RD and an annealed case .
The Right one is a Ready to go resized and once fired AI case.
Here is a better pic of the same cases, you can see the eventual sharpening of the shoulder:
here is what I found.
I had to anneal the case neck and shoulder to get a decent fireform using the COW method(12gr. Red Dot) and sometimes it still requires firing a next to full house load before the shoulder sharpens up. We did however find that the annealed cases last longer and resist neck cracking for at least 2 to 4 reloads more than an un annealed case.
Here is a picture of the stages:
The one on the Left is a COW fireformed with 12gr. of Red Dot
The Middle is a COW fireformed with 12gr of RD and an annealed case .
The Right one is a Ready to go resized and once fired AI case.
Here is a better pic of the same cases, you can see the eventual sharpening of the shoulder:
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Lefty #### said:
LD,
You will always get better case life in this area with annealed brass, with any brass, not just reformed cases. I regularly anneal standard brass for better case life.
This is one of the ways to keep hard to find brass working like new.
Ted
Mauser98 - it is fine shooting factory loads in a proper AI chamber but corn meal is usually a cheaper alternative to bullets when blowing out cases which is the end purpose. A blown out case case then can be loaded up appropriately with more powder as the relative case volume is then, and only then, larger. Factory rounds usually perform a slight bit on the slow side when fired in the more spacious AI chamber - but nonetheless out pops a AI empty case ready to reload to full ballistic potential afterward (the ultimate purpose for having a AI chamber).
I fireform both good used and new 30-06 cases into 35 Whelen AI with the cornmeal method basically as described above. The case goes in the chamber with a 30cal neck and comes out with a 35cal neck in the AI configuration. Neat and fun I think.
I fireform both good used and new 30-06 cases into 35 Whelen AI with the cornmeal method basically as described above. The case goes in the chamber with a 30cal neck and comes out with a 35cal neck in the AI configuration. Neat and fun I think.
I used full power loads to fire form 300 35 Whelen A.I. brass, I didn't care about the reloading component costs since I shoot almost every weekend anyway and the accuracy while fireforming was very close to reloads with fireformed brass. The 200 and 300 yard gongs on the range couldn't tell the difference, it made for good shooting practice and it was just fun to shoot them.
If the chamber was cut properly, and the brass hasn't had the shoulder set back, you just load with a middle of the road 30-06 load for whatever bullet you're using, and go shoot. This is the reason the chamber is supposed to be 0.004" shorter to the midpoint of the case's shoulder. As mentioned, for Gibbs and such (yes I own some of those as well as some AI's) you have to be more creative, but the Ackleys should just be a load, shoot and go prospect. - dan
