Firing Pin VS Striker Pistols Opinions

[TT1900]

Wow... Have a look around, the vast vast majority of LE use Glock pistols or similar striker fired guns. The go to pistols for several decades in the SOF world have been either DA/SA guns like a 226 or striker fired guns like a Glock. MEU SOC adopted a 1911 and quickly abandoned them after repeated failures, they now use Glock pistols. A pistol that lacks a manual safety and/or a hammer is the go to choice but that is not my opinion it is logical fact based reality. Adding another step to the draw stroke/firing sequence does not make the user or gun any safer or faster.

One other side note, what manufacturer now doesn't offer a striker fired pistol?? Is that the brands just cashing in on the "fad" or are they on to something??

As for your "low probability, carried lots used little" comment. A lot of the groups or users who have logistical freedom are not carrying them as a secondary. There are plenty who rely on a handgun as their primary and only firearm. Take a guess what they're carrying... A smaller, lighter, easier to shoot, more reliable pistol that carries more rounds is in no way a compromise, it's a wise choice.

I really don't care one bit what is used in "GAMING" competitions, none of which have anything to do with the practical use of a firearm. By their very nature the gamer is looking for any advantage(perceived or real) they can to shave time and beat the clock. The practical user is trying to beat another human. Losing a match on a gamble of a technique or new piece of gear is a small price to pay in comparison.

Glock pistols fit anyone and everyone with a hand as large(and the strength) as an 11 year old girl. If you can't shoot a Glock(or any service pistol for that matter) then it's because you can't shoot. You like your SAO guns because they're heavy and have short soft triggers that cover up your poor form. I see that countless times at the range and I hear the same tired excuse "this gun shoots better for me.." No, the gun doesn't shoot better, the gun simply covers up your poor form.[/B][/I]

I'm not stating that a striker gun isn't the best for general LE/Mil use. In fact if I would be thrilled if I was issued a G19 over the current pistol in order to save weight on a piece of gear I'll never use but am required to carry in certain circumstances. Most LE & Mil shooters, unless they practice on their own time, are not good shots and several are unfamiliar with their weapons. Therefore a simple firearm with a simple manual of arms makes sense. In my last job I was required to maintain "currency" with a sidearm. I shot once per year, less than 50rds, and was not responsible for assembly/disassembly/function check/cleaning. At least half of my co-workers, had they been asked to strip and re-assemble would have been unable to do so. Minimum parts count makes sense logistically, especially in the military context where global supply chain and compatibility for tens of thousands of weapons is required. Polymer/striker guns are also attractively priced compared to the metal/hammer fired guns and when buying with public money, that is king.

Stop talking SOF, it makes you look foolish. You live in Calgary. Not everything written online is true. Unless you're a current member of the community (difficult in Calgary), you know as much as I and most others do - almost nothing.

Manufacturers are absolutely onto something. Polymer/Striker is the future of duty weapons for reasons discussed above.

Gaming/target/plinking/just-for-fun, for the majority of this forum myself included, is all pistols can be used for. You don't care about it that's on you, but doesn't change the fact that striker guns are not king in this realm. Hammer guns really do shoot better-don't believe me? Find a Glock in the centrefire portion of Bullseye 2700 - you can't. When precision matters polymer striker guns are nowhere to be seen. But those ISSF/Bullseye guys have poor form and technique right? If only they were more talented they wouldn't need those hammer fired cheater guns to cover for them.

As to my poor shooting technique, I have good days and bad days like everyone else but if you're ever in Moose Jaw give me a heads up and I'll show you a thing or two. I'll even provide guns and ammo on my dime, but you'll have to settle for hammer fired. And next time I'm in Calgary I'll give you a heads up. You can demonstrate your superior skill in how its done with those silly striker guns.

 

[Kidd X]

There's nothing difficult about mastering a DA trigger pull, assuming its not rough or ridiculously heavy.

A DA first shot gives you a lot more real world margin for error, particularly on the draw.

Are you suggesting that some people are placing their finger on the trigger prior to aligning sights with a target and having made the conscious decision to fire? If that's the case then you have violated a fundamental two rules of firearms handling. That is a training issue not an equipment issue. Fingers don't touch triggers until sights are aligned with a TARGET and the CONSCIOUS DECISION to fire has been made....

All DA hammer fired guns are both rough and heavy, it's the nature of DA firing mechanisms.

I'm not stating that a striker gun isn't the best for general LE/Mil use. In fact if I would be thrilled if I was issued a G19 over the current pistol in order to save weight on a piece of gear I'll never use but am required to carry in certain circumstances. Most LE & Mil shooters, unless they practice on their own time, are not good shots and several are unfamiliar with their weapons. Therefore a simple firearm with a simple manual of arms makes sense. In my last job I was required to maintain "currency" with a sidearm. I shot once per year, less than 50rds, and was not responsible for assembly/disassembly/function check/cleaning. At least half of my co-workers, had they been asked to strip and re-assemble would have been unable to do so. Minimum parts count makes sense logistically, especially in the military context where global supply chain and compatibility for tens of thousands of weapons is required. Polymer/striker guns are also attractively priced compared to the metal/hammer fired guns and when buying with public money, that is king.

Stop talking SOF, it makes you look foolish. You live in Calgary. Not everything written online is true. Unless you're a current member of the community (difficult in Calgary), you know as much as I and most others do - almost nothing.

Manufacturers are absolutely onto something. Polymer/Striker is the future of duty weapons for reasons discussed above.

Gaming/target/plinking/just-for-fun, for the majority of this forum myself included, is all pistols can be used for. You don't care about it that's on you, but doesn't change the fact that striker guns are not king in this realm. Hammer guns really do shoot better-don't believe me? Find a Glock in the centrefire portion of Bullseye 2700 - you can't. When precision matters polymer striker guns are nowhere to be seen. But those ISSF/Bullseye guys have poor form and technique right? If only they were more talented they wouldn't need those hammer fired cheater guns to cover for them.

As to my poor shooting technique, I have good days and bad days like everyone else but if you're ever in Moose Jaw give me a heads up and I'll show you a thing or two. I'll even provide guns and ammo on my dime, but you'll have to settle for hammer fired. And next time I'm in Calgary I'll give you a heads up. You can demonstrate your superior skill in how its done with those silly striker guns.

And again with the classic "it's a cost thing" argument. News flash, all companies offer sweet deals to large departments. S&W is famously known for buying back it's used revolvers and offering low cost parts and service for their new autos(now old autos) in trade. Cost is a factor but it isn't the only factor, if it were every department would be issued a hi point pistol in a fobus holster.

I have to ask how you're so sure you will never have to use a pistol you are required to carry, can you predict the future?? If I knew for certain I would need a pistol I would bring a rifle. If I knew for certain I wouldn't need a firearm then I like you wouldn't carry one, but you don't know if you'll ever need it.

You're absolutely right about LE being generally poor shots and not spending any of their own time or own dime to improve proficiency. Hey it's their life in the balance who are we to say otherwise. I'm betting your last job was armored car based on your opinion of not ever needing your firearm and the lack of training required by your employer. Your current job is RCMP as nearly everyone else in the country issues Glock pistols(shocking I know) and the S&W 5946 is a boat anchor with an atrocious DAO trigger and poorly designed magazine disconnect.

What's foolish about current and former SOF guys/units? Both are using pistols on the regular and all are using striker fired guns. Let me list a few individuals who prefer striker fired guns.

Kyle Defoor
Kyle Lamb
The late Pat Rogers
Pat McNamara
Travis Haley
John Lovell
Massad Ayoob

here's a real shocker for you. RCMP air marshals are carrying... Glock 19's! Who would have thought.


Yep all of these guys are idiots and only pander to the low price Glock offers.

Not sure how you know what I know but I'm gonna bet you don't know much about me. You seem to think I'm wrong yet you can't argue my point with anything resembling facts, just conjecture and speculation.

Striker fired guns are the future because they're easier to shoot and maintain which is logical when compared to other firing systems and control layouts.

You are absolutely entitled to defend yourself with up to and including lethal force in this country. If you think otherwise or are limiting yourself to less lethal defensive measures then you're only cheating yourself. (As the devil's advocate I couldn't care less what the law says, I'm defending myself.. You may choose otherwise.)

Nothing wrong with shooting for fun but without a drive to improve or learn something useful it is nothing but expensive time wasted. As I posted in another thread, if this discussion is about personal preference for random activities with firearms then it's nothing but mental masturbation and there is no answer nor is there a point to be made. If we want to discuss the mechanical and practical merits of striker fired vs hammer fired then the answer without a doubt is striker fired for all the reasons I posted previously.

You mention bullseye shooting which equates to gaming which equals I don't care what people use for recreational activities. The key word is RECREATIONAL meaning the outcome has no negative consequences. When precision matters smart people use a rifle. The level of precision achieved by the bullseye crowd is astounding but it is not required nor relevant to service guns or their intended role.

Thanks for the offer to shoot, I do fine with hammer fired guns I just don't like their overly complex designs, two distinct trigger pulls, over sized, heavy, higher bore axis traits. I enjoy shooting a 1911 from time to time(not my 1911 someone else's) until it gets boring or chokes which is usually a toss up. Seeing as we are only limited to "fun" shooting I see no benefit in limiting myself to 8 rounds when 10 is legal.. Kidding, I have no use for outdated overweight complex pistols like a 1911 either. Beautiful guns just not relevant anymore.

Curious to know, can you shoot a striker fired gun as well as a hammer fired? If so why the hate for them?

 

[Gundoggy]

Massad Ayoob can competently carry and shoot any pistol. His articles from late 80's to now describe how he would rotate between different platforms especially if he was teaching police departments...he'd carry what they did.

I follow his wisdom. Shooting different guns, especially one that's different from 'your favourite' helps to refine and focus your fundamentals as it breaks your muscle memory. You absolutely must focus on basics in such a situation.

For DA/SA, try placing the first 'crease' of your finger on the trigger, not shifting required from DA to SA...another Ayoob trick.

Re. Glocks fit everyone...now with Gen 4, and single stacks like Glock 43... I would agree. In the 90's there were articles about FBI being taken to task about assigning pistols too large for small handed men and women and they failed qualifications..they were able to qualify with single stack 9mm pistols. Ayoob wrote MANY articles about guns that fit women and small handed people better. As a small handed fellow married to a 5' tall wife, while it's true we can both shoot a fat double stack competently we can both shoot much more efficiently with a single stack or one of the plastic pistols with adjustable grips....years ago this meant Glocks were not as good, but as I mentioned Glocks now do offer a great variety of grip sizes and guns.

 

[TT1900]

I don't hate striker guns and am unsure if I shoot them better or worse as a whole. My experiences have been fairly limited. I do know that for my Recreational purposes I like the hammer guns I've chosen. If I decide to get into IDPA polymer will be at the top of my list.

 

[Tyler]

Are you suggesting that some people are placing their finger on the trigger prior to aligning sights with a target and having made the conscious decision to fire? If that's the case then you have violated a fundamental two rules of firearms handling. That is a training issue not an equipment issue. Fingers don't touch triggers until sights are aligned with a TARGET and the CONSCIOUS DECISION to fire has been made....

I think you're reading into something he didn't say. Either way, the 'real world' (TM) is full of examples where taking up the slack on the DA pull as you align the sites is an option. Training is the issue, as you said.

Our SF/MP's/Boarding parties, etc use Sigs, not Glocks. Not like there's anything wrong with either.

 

[Hitzy]

They are all fun to shoot, different quirks between them, none are perfect, some are better then others at specific tasks.
Glock is on record stating they can make their entire pistol for under $100US per unit, so whoever doesn't think price is involved in arming PD is out to lunch. That is exactly why they were adopted over the older 92's and S&W's. Also AD's have increased among PD's since switching to Glocks... imagine that.
US military will never adopt them either as the trigger needs to be pulled prior to disassembly.

 

[maxman1]

Striker fired guns have a consistent trigger pull from first round to last round.

So do Single Action Only and Double Action Only pistols.

 

[Ontariooutdoorsman]

Not sure safety is an issue with either as it is what your accustomed to a train on. As for right now I prefer the weight of metal hammer pistols...personal preference. I am going to try striker fired pistols soon and see how it feels....personally I like the idea of quality but many have pointed out no problem with quality of striker fired pistols so maybe I need to get over that.

 

[gdawg]

I'm not stating that a striker gun isn't the best for general LE/Mil use. In fact if I would be thrilled if I was issued a G19 over the current pistol in order to save weight on a piece of gear I'll never use but am required to carry in certain circumstances. Most LE & Mil shooters, unless they practice on their own time, are not good shots and several are unfamiliar with their weapons. Therefore a simple firearm with a simple manual of arms makes sense. In my last job I was required to maintain "currency" with a sidearm. I shot once per year, less than 50rds, and was not responsible for assembly/disassembly/function check/cleaning. At least half of my co-workers, had they been asked to strip and re-assemble would have been unable to do so. Minimum parts count makes sense logistically, especially in the military context where global supply chain and compatibility for tens of thousands of weapons is required. Polymer/striker guns are also attractively priced compared to the metal/hammer fired guns and when buying with public money, that is king.

Stop talking SOF, it makes you look foolish. You live in Calgary. Not everything written online is true. Unless you're a current member of the community (difficult in Calgary), you know as much as I and most others do - almost nothing.

Manufacturers are absolutely onto something. Polymer/Striker is the future of duty weapons for reasons discussed above.

Gaming/target/plinking/just-for-fun, for the majority of this forum myself included, is all pistols can be used for. You don't care about it that's on you, but doesn't change the fact that striker guns are not king in this realm. Hammer guns really do shoot better-don't believe me? Find a Glock in the centrefire portion of Bullseye 2700 - you can't. When precision matters polymer striker guns are nowhere to be seen. But those ISSF/Bullseye guys have poor form and technique right? If only they were more talented they wouldn't need those hammer fired cheater guns to cover for them.

excellent response

 

[Meroh]

Thanks, great post!

 

[SteelCap]

If this has been covered before I do apologize.
Having somewhat recently gotten involved in hand gun I had purchased hammer mechanisms.

What are the main advantages or disadvantages of a striker fired pistol.

Another aspect to consider would be the ammo availability. Most commercial 9mm ammo for example, in my experience, work with striker fired such as M&P, Glock and CZP06. Tried it and works. But prices went up and ended up buying cheaper 9mm like Barnaul. None of the striker fired could consistently use the ammo. Worst was fired only 3 out of 10 in the mag. Enter hammer in CZ75B, NZ85B and Norc P226; it fired every single Barnaul ammo including those that did not using striker.

 

[Kidd X]

I think you're reading into something he didn't say. Either way, the 'real world' (TM) is full of examples where taking up the slack on the DA pull as you align the sites is an option. Training is the issue, as you said.

Our SF/MP's/Boarding parties, etc use Sigs, not Glocks. Not like there's anything wrong with either.

It's called working the trigger or prepping the trigger and it's a dangerous technique that offers little in the way of gains. The reason some use and teach to prep the trigger is solely due to long heavy(sh*tty) DA triggers. That problem and the risk of an ND are eliminated by using a gun with a consistent manageable trigger, like a striker fired gun. Prepping the trigger also violates two of the four fundamental firearm rules but who's checking..

They are all fun to shoot, different quirks between them, none are perfect, some are better then others at specific tasks.
Glock is on record stating they can make their entire pistol for under $100US per unit, so whoever doesn't think price is involved in arming PD is out to lunch. That is exactly why they were adopted over the older 92's and S&W's. Also AD's have increased among PD's since switching to Glocks... imagine that.
US military will never adopt them either as the trigger needs to be pulled prior to disassembly.

Price plays a role but it isn't the only role. Again, if it were all departments would be using Hi point pistols and carbines. CBSA apparently got their amazing(heavy sarcasm) PX4 pistols for a little over $200 a unit. Look at the Sig 320 for the US Army, price per gun comes in at around $207 a unit and that might include more than just the gun as the contract was for guns, parts, magazines, holsters, suppressors, and ammo..

So do Single Action Only and Double Action Only pistols.

Right, and with a single action gun you're back to square one with having to manipulate a manual safety and the increased risk of carrying a cocked firearm.(think SIG 320 not drop safe). A DAO hammer fired gun still suffers from long heavy trigger pull, exposed and unnecessary hammer and other parts as well as an increased bore axis, all with ZERO gains in performance. I do find it interesting that hammer fired crowd seem to stay away from DAO guns. Almost like they know that DAO hammer guns suck and their love for the SA keeps them away.

Not sure safety is an issue with either as it is what your accustomed to a train on. As for right now I prefer the weight of metal hammer pistols...personal preference. I am going to try striker fired pistols soon and see how it feels....personally I like the idea of quality but many have pointed out no problem with quality of striker fired pistols so maybe I need to get over that.

Why do you prefer the increased weight and comparing that weight to what??

Another aspect to consider would be the ammo availability. Most commercial 9mm ammo for example, in my experience, work with striker fired such as M&P, Glock and CZP06. Tried it and works. But prices went up and ended up buying cheaper 9mm like Barnaul. None of the striker fired could consistently use the ammo. Worst was fired only 3 out of 10 in the mag. Enter hammer in CZ75B, NZ85B and Norc P226; it fired every single Barnaul ammo including those that did not using striker.

This tidbit is just as valid as yours but my sample size of 2 Glock pistols is absolutely contradictory to your experience with cheap Barnaul ammo. I loaded and shot 300 rounds of Barnaul as fast as myself and a buddy could load six mags and never had a problem. His HK had several stoppages with the same ammo.

 

[xdmer]

I wear a large glove, wide palm, but short fingers. Trigger reach can be a real issue for me, and any Glock before Gen 4 was a no go, Beretta's need a short reach trigger to fit right.

Massad Ayoob can competently carry and shoot any pistol. His articles from late 80's to now describe how he would rotate between different platforms especially if he was teaching police departments...he'd carry what they did.

I follow his wisdom. Shooting different guns, especially one that's different from 'your favourite' helps to refine and focus your fundamentals as it breaks your muscle memory. You absolutely must focus on basics in such a situation.

For DA/SA, try placing the first 'crease' of your finger on the trigger, not shifting required from DA to SA...another Ayoob trick.

Re. Glocks fit everyone...now with Gen 4, and single stacks like Glock 43... I would agree. In the 90's there were articles about FBI being taken to task about assigning pistols too large for small handed men and women and they failed qualifications..they were able to qualify with single stack 9mm pistols. Ayoob wrote MANY articles about guns that fit women and small handed people better. As a small handed fellow married to a 5' tall wife, while it's true we can both shoot a fat double stack competently we can both shoot much more efficiently with a single stack or one of the plastic pistols with adjustable grips....years ago this meant Glocks were not as good, but as I mentioned Glocks now do offer a great variety of grip sizes and guns.

 

[Ontariooutdoorsman]

Why do you prefer the increased weight and comparing that weight to what??


Still prefer a Walnut stocked rifle....if a classic rifle, to a synthetic....just preference!

I do feel for a long lasting generational side arm I prefer metal....Love the feel of the CZ or Jericho....many others...1911's in my hand....hell my hunting rifle weighs almost 8 lbs with scope so it's not a weight issue just comfortable.


OK I WILL TRY A GLOCK SOON!!!!! Always thought I wanted a glock until I picked one up the first time. First impression was ...felt like a toy! OK Just me...just getting into pistol.....however....would never buy a rifle that felt like a toy......maybe that is what we rifle guys need to get over. JMHO

 

[Gundoggy]

With age and injuries, heavier guns and/or lighter triggers may be helpful to allow one to shoot.

I suffered a bout of tendonitis in my right trigger finger a few years back. Now with heavy triggers (above 5 or 6 lbs) I actually shoot better one handed with my left hand vs. my injured right trigger finger. With lighter triggers, the two hands are equal.

For people with arthritis or other hand injuries, a heavier gun may be helpful.

 

[Kidd X]

I wear a large glove, wide palm, but short fingers. Trigger reach can be a real issue for me, and any Glock before Gen 4 was a no go, Beretta's need a short reach trigger to fit right.

The difference in length of pull between a gen 3 Glock and a gen 4 without any backstraps is a whopping 0.08" or 2mm which is around 20 sheets of paper. Not enough to make a difference. If your hands are smaller than that of an 11 year old girl you might have a concern, otherwise it's just an excuse.

Why do you prefer the increased weight and comparing that weight to what??


Still prefer a Walnut stocked rifle....if a classic rifle, to a synthetic....just preference!

I do feel for a long lasting generational side arm I prefer metal....Love the feel of the CZ or Jericho....many others...1911's in my hand....hell my hunting rifle weighs almost 8 lbs with scope so it's not a weight issue just comfortable.


OK I WILL TRY A GLOCK SOON!!!!! Always thought I wanted a glock until I picked one up the first time. First impression was ...felt like a toy! OK Just me...just getting into pistol.....however....would never buy a rifle that felt like a toy......maybe that is what we rifle guys need to get over. JMHO

So it's purely a personal opinion and not supported by facts or logic?

You are correct, in that people need to get over their emotional responses and/or pre determined beliefs about something before they ever give it a fair shake.

With age and injuries, heavier guns and/or lighter triggers may be helpful to allow one to shoot.

I suffered a bout of tendonitis in my right trigger finger a few years back. Now with heavy triggers (above 5 or 6 lbs) I actually shoot better one handed with my left hand vs. my injured right trigger finger. With lighter triggers, the two hands are equal.

For people with arthritis or other hand injuries, a heavier gun may be helpful.

Special cases will always be the exception to the rule.

 

[xdmer]

Lol yup tdc confirmed.

the difference in length of pull between a gen 3 glock and a gen 4 without any backstraps is a whopping 0.08" or 2mm which is around 20 sheets of paper. Not enough to make a difference. If your hands are smaller than that of an 11 year old girl you might have a concern, otherwise it's just an excuse.



So it's purely a personal opinion and not supported by facts or logic?

You are correct, in that people need to get over their emotional responses and/or pre determined beliefs about something before they ever give it a fair shake.



Special cases will always be the exception to the rule.

 

[edgy]

It's called working the trigger or prepping the trigger and it's a dangerous technique that offers little in the way of gains. The reason some use and teach to prep the trigger is solely due to long heavy(sh*tty) DA triggers. That problem and the risk of an ND are eliminated by using a gun with a consistent manageable trigger, like a striker fired gun. Prepping the trigger also violates two of the four fundamental firearm rules but who's checking..



Price plays a role but it isn't the only role. Again, if it were all departments would be using Hi point pistols and carbines. CBSA apparently got their amazing(heavy sarcasm) PX4 pistols for a little over $200 a unit. Look at the Sig 320 for the US Army, price per gun comes in at around $207 a unit and that might include more than just the gun as the contract was for guns, parts, magazines, holsters, suppressors, and ammo..



Right, and with a single action gun you're back to square one with having to manipulate a manual safety and the increased risk of carrying a cocked firearm.(think SIG 320 not drop safe). A DAO hammer fired gun still suffers from long heavy trigger pull, exposed and unnecessary hammer and other parts as well as an increased bore axis, all with ZERO gains in performance. I do find it interesting that hammer fired crowd seem to stay away from DAO guns. Almost like they know that DAO hammer guns suck and their love for the SA keeps them away.



Why do you prefer the increased weight and comparing that weight to what??



This tidbit is just as valid as yours but my sample size of 2 Glock pistols is absolutely contradictory to your experience with cheap Barnaul ammo. I loaded and shot 300 rounds of Barnaul as fast as myself and a buddy could load six mags and never had a problem. His HK had several stoppages with the same ammo.

I call BS on your last statement,,,there is NO WAY you have a buddy

 

[Tyler]

Lol yup tdc confirmed.

I miss that guy...

 

[Ontariooutdoorsman]

So it's purely a personal opinion and not supported by facts or logic?

Hell yes!!!!! This is firearms we are talking about and it is all about personal opinion........Some like a 9 mm....others can handle the 45.....Some like 270 Win some like 300 win mag.....its all about the individual and comfortability....
Hey....Takes a lot of different people and views to make this an interesting planet!