First .22LR Rifle

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sieg777

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Hey all,

I should start off by saying I am new to CGN, and also a brand spanking new holder of a PAL/RPAL! Hoping to contribute what I can to the community moving forward.

That being said, I am reaching out for the purpose of getting some experienced opinions on what I should buy. Around various forums/youtube videos, I have been reading that shooting .22LR at 300 yards roughly translates to shooting a .308 at 1000 yards. As someone who doesn't want to burn more money per round than I need to for long range training, this makes a .22LR rifle *very* appealing right now. Also, I realize that shooting a .22LR round on target at 300 yards is no simple feat. I should also mention that I have done some shooting on and off throughout the years, but not on my own gear, so I am more or less daft when it comes to knowing *everything* I might need.

I guess my question then is, as someone totally new to purchasing guns/gun accessories, which rifle/optic would you guys recommend with this goal in mind? I understand that you have to play around with various ammunition to see what the gun likes, but I just want an experienced opinion to help me make a more informed purchase regarding my actual setup. Based off my own research, I was thinking a Savage MKII TR + Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50.

Budget is $1500-$2000. If you could list all accessories that I would need to buy (rings, rail, etc), that would be incredible.

Thanks in advance, I'm sure you guys get tons of new people asking "what should I buy"; just want a second opinion before I commit to my purchase :)
 
You might want to think a bit more about your goal. 300 yards is really an extreme range for a .22. Those small, low energy bullets are easily deflected by wind, especially at long range. Even on a still day the bullet drop will be large, probably several feet. Most people find accurate shooting at 100 yards fairly challenging.

Also, you would not be able to see the holes in a paper target without a powerful spotting scope. Even then it might be tough. So unless you're using some kind of reactive target you can anticipate a lot of 600 yard round trips to check results. Good exercise, I suppose, but I'd rather spend the time actually shooting.

That said, to each his own. You'll soon find out whether this is a challenge you really want to take on.

I've had very good results with Savage MKIIs and expect you would be happy with the rifle. A 16x scope is barely adequate for precision shooting at 100 yards. At bench rest matches everyone uses at least 24x. (I use 36x.) But again, it depends on your target. You don't need that much to see if a milk jug was hit.

50mm objective lens is pretty large for a .22. It will give you more light, but that isn't usually a big factor in target shooting where you're likely to be shooting in full daylight. Also, it may require high rings - something to check out.
 
Welcome to CGN, shooting, and the wonderful world of rimfire! :) I think your research has served you well, you'd do just fine with a Mark II TR. However, that rifle...that scope...that long-distance shooting plan MIGHT find you pigeon-holing yourself into 1 type of shooting~bench rest. If that's your intention, or, to shoot the rifle prone off a bipod, I'd say go for it. My concern might be that you'd be missing some of the fun .22s offer. Off hand/open sights "plinking" at pop cans, carrying a rifle through the bush hunting (if you decide to do that down the road)..that sort of thing. However....if you go down the path that most shooters do...this will be the first rimfire of MANY you'll own in the coming years, so, get what you want...do allot of shooting with it, have fun, and keep reading this forum to see what turns everybody else's crank! :)

A word on the scope choice...

I own 3 Vortex Scopes, a new Diamondback, and 2 Viper HS 4-16x44s on my centerfire varmint guns. Personally, I wouldn't go any "more" scope than a Viper HS on a .22, but make sure (like my scopes) they have either side focus, or an adjustable objective. Reason is~most scopes out there are designed to be used at distances 50/100 yards and beyond, and simply don't function right if you use them at closer distances. Side Focus scopes, and AO scopes (adjustable objective) can usually be dialed-down allot closer and are better choices for .22s. Lastly, the long-distance shooting plan... Take a look at the "Rimfire Ballistics" charts on this page, specifically, the "Rimfire Drop Chart" http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/63954-Rimfire-Ballistic-charts Take a look at 22lr high velocity and note that with your scope zeroed @ 50 yards, the bullet will drop approx. 121" @ 300 yards. That's a heck of allot of elevation adjustment to expect from a scope! If you're looking take that on, you'll need a different scope base, and NOT the rail that the Savage TR comes equipped with.

My recommendation~the rifle choice I like. Opt for a Viper HS, power range 4-16x good. Get a sense of what the practical range of .22lr is and shoot it ALLOT @ 50/75/100 yards to get a sense of the drop even within that spread. If you're shooting from a bench, buy a solid front rest and rear bag, spare magazines (I like the 5rd., they don't hang out of the stock) and a nice variety of ammo to try out. Some decent cleaning supplies, a soft case, ear/eye protection~I'd say you're ready to go!

Lastly....a CZ mention, because somebody has to say it. For the price of a Savage Mark II TR you're in CZ territory. Beautiful guns, used to have one that I sold...and shouldn't have. Better build quality than any Savage rimfire, and arguably...more accurate. (Depending on who you ask) Personally, I think most Savages shoot as well as CZs when it comes to .22s, when you step up to 17HMR, my personal experience has shown CZ seems to have the edge. BUT, the downside to CZs (especially with new gun owners) is the issue of the bolt throw. The bolt on a CZ (when open) is so high that it can dictate what scope you use with those rifles. I had to choose a scope that had a 1" tube (no 30mm Vortex) so that it would clear, and it barely did. (see photo below) They are nicer guns, but Savages are more forgiving..mags are less expensive, they're easier to scope, etc. etc.

Obviously in a chatty mood...but good luck! Feel free to message me if you'd like to read any more rambling... :) I'm in the GTA as well.

CZ1.jpg




sieg777 said:
Hey all,

I should start off by saying I am new to CGN, and also a brand spanking new holder of a PAL/RPAL! Hoping to contribute what I can to the community moving forward.

That being said, I am reaching out for the purpose of getting some experienced opinions on what I should buy. Around various forums/youtube videos, I have been reading that shooting .22LR at 300 yards roughly translates to shooting a .308 at 1000 yards. As someone who doesn't want to burn more money per round than I need to for long range training, this makes a .22LR rifle *very* appealing right now. Also, I realize that shooting a .22LR round on target at 300 yards is no simple feat. I should also mention that I have done some shooting on and off throughout the years, but not on my own gear, so I am more or less daft when it comes to knowing *everything* I might need.

I guess my question then is, as someone totally new to purchasing guns/gun accessories, which rifle/optic would you guys recommend with this goal in mind? I understand that you have to play around with various ammunition to see what the gun likes, but I just want an experienced opinion to help me make a more informed purchase regarding my actual setup. Based off my own research, I was thinking a Savage MKII TR + Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50.

Budget is $1500-$2000. If you could list all accessories that I would need to buy (rings, rail, etc), that would be incredible.

Thanks in advance, I'm sure you guys get tons of new people asking "what should I buy"; just want a second opinion before I commit to my purchase :)
Click to expand...
 
If you are interested in buying solid, classic, accurate bolt-action .22 rifle I highly recommend the CZ 452/455. They make a number of stock designs to suit your taste; I recently bought a 452 American (left-handed) and could not be more pleased. Wood is good. I believe they are only making 455's now in the various right-handed models, but they are great too.

For the very curious, here is a detailed thread on the differences between the 452 and 455. Both are great.

EDIT: re. scopes, I have a Nikon Prostaff Target EFR with a 40mm objective. Talley rimfire high rings work just fine; there's not a ton of room between the bolt knob and the eyepiece, but there is enough.
 
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I really like the idea behind a precision 22LR training rifle but in my experience they just haven't worked out. I picked up a Savage Mark 2 FV-SR and it doesn't shoot all that well. 1" groups at 50 yards is about the normal group size with the ammo it likes.

You may want to look into a 17HMR training rifle. The cost of Hornady 17HMR is about the same as middle of the road match 22LR ammo and shoots about as good.

17HMR has the ability to shoot very decent group sizes out to 300 yards. Its not unheard of to get less then 6" groups at 300 yards.

As for a scope I would look at a Sightron SIII 6-24x50. It has a massive amount of elevation travel so you can adjust for long range shots with out worrying about running out of adjustment.

Another thing to remember is if you put a rifle like this together you can take the scope off later and put it on a center fire rifle and reach out to 1000+ distances.

Feel free to send me a PM if you have any questions.
 
.22LRGUY said:
Lastly....a CZ mention, because somebody has to say it. For the price of a Savage Mark II TR you're in CZ territory. Beautiful guns, used to have one that I sold...and shouldn't have. Better build quality than any Savage rimfire, and arguably...more accurate. (Depending on who you ask) Personally, I think most Savages shoot as well as CZs when it comes to .22s, when you step up to 17HMR, my personal experience has shown CZ seems to have the edge. BUT, the downside to CZs (especially with new gun owners) is the issue of the bolt throw. The bolt on a CZ (when open) is so high that it can dictate what scope you use with those rifles. I had to choose a scope that had a 1" tube (no 30mm Vortex) so that it would clear, and it barely did. (see photo below) They are nicer guns, but Savages are more forgiving..mags are less expensive, they're easier to scope, etc. etc.
Click to expand...

ThurnYTaxis said:
If you are interested in buying solid, classic, accurate bolt-action .22 rifle I highly recommend the CZ 452/455. They make a number of stock designs to suit your taste; I recently bought a 452 American (left-handed) and could not be more pleased. Wood is good. I believe they are only making 455's now in the various right-handed models, but they are great too.
Click to expand...

The first gun I had in mind actually was a CZ 455, but it seemed to be demonized compared to the 452 in terms of accuracy out of the box, and there are no right-handed 452s anywhere around here that I know of >.< I know it's such a small detail, but I actually am not very much a fan of the bolt-locking safety on it either; that was one of the smaller appeals to the MKII TR. Another point against the CZ452/455 that I had gathered, was multiple people saying how the bolt seemed to lock up a lot, whereas the Savage MKII's seemed to cycle more smoothly. I have not actually shot one before, so I am not sure how true this may be.

Re: how I will be shooting this, you are correct! I am more interested in bench rest, for now at least. Regarding the long range setup, it seems that everyone who tries to push their .22LRs out further use a 20MOA rail. Would anyone be able to recommend one of these? Do these typically mount universally to any gun?

Thanks again for the feedback, really appreciate it :)

EDIT: Optic-wise, I think it is decided that I am going to be grabbing a 6-24x so I can see my shots easily.
 
Find Clayne_B or his proper title.
His long range 22 rim fire shooting will open yer eyes.
Haven't seen him here for a bit.
Try rimfire central.
 
sieg777 said:
EDIT: Optic-wise, I think it is decided that I am going to be grabbing a 6-24x so I can see my shots easily.
Click to expand...

Too much magnification can actually work against you, but, reading your posts...it seems like you're dead-set on the long-range game. It should be said~almost every caliber BUT .22lr is a better choice for long-range shooting so really...you're backing yourself into a corner as a new shooter. (simply my opinion) You need allot of trigger time to get good with any gun, so I'd urge you not concern yourself with 20MOA rails, high magnification scopes, etc. etc. and start with something more simple. I have this scope on one of my rimfires; http://www.grouseriver.com/Vortex_Diamondback_4_12x40_AO_Riflescope_p/opt-002136.htm and it's plenty for the practical range of .22lr. If I were you, get a scope like that...throw it on your Mark II TR, and get shooting. When you have a few thousand rounds down the pipe, then decide whether or not .22lr is your top pic for long-range. Chances are...at the very least...you'll have questions about 17HMR or better yet...the smaller centerfire calibers like .223. The latter IS a caliber that warrants the use of a better, higher magnification scope. Also, if you decide to start reloading like I have in recent years (allot easier than I thought it would be) you can now have total control over your loads, use heavier bullets for stable flight long range, and generally start getting the results I think you're after...with a gun/caliber better-suited.

I'm not taking anything away from .22lr, I shoot it more than any other caliber...but I enjoy it at the ranges it was meant to be used. Good luck!
 
I have been doing precision 22lr bench rest for some time. I strongly advise you get a CZ. The 455 varmint is a good choice. When ready you can swap the barrell for a Lilja match barrell if you feel like it. For the scope, can't go wrong with a Sightron SIII. I have a 8X32X56 on my CZ455 and it is just fantastic. Though I use it for 50 and 100 yards. 200 yards could be done but 300 yards with standard velocity match ammo seems too far for me.

Gilbert
 
That sounds awesome Gilbert :) I actually went to Sail/Al Flaherty's today, and after handling a few, I can definitely see why everyone recommends CZ :p After seeing the stock finish in person on the Mark II TR, and seeing the CZ 455 Varmint right after, no contest. I can grin and bear the bolt-mounted safety for that alone. I checked out the Savage MKII BTVS as well, and while it actually feels really nice, I'm not exactly a fan of the aesthetics (bad reason to not want a perfectly functional piece of gear, but hey, we all like our vanity here and there). Regarding your optic on the 455, you don't have any issues when the bolt is open? Was that issue resolved with the 455? That scope has a 30mm tube yeah?

EDIT: I think I am more or less set on the 455 Varmint. From what I understand, the Varmint models also have the interchangeable barrels, so if I ever decide I want to try my hand at 17HMR, its just a barrel swap down the road. I think my priority right now is getting consistent trigger time and experimenting with whichever gun I buy. I had about $1700 set aside for initial investment, so if I do go with a CZ 455 Varmint and keep my scope within the $500-700 range, I potentially have enough left over to make use of that R in RPAL and pickup a Ruger SP101 or Browning 1911 A1 ;)

The name is Daniel by the way, and once again, thanks to everyone who took the time to reply and help out.
 
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My buddy special ordered a CZ455 Varmint thru LeBaron's in Markham and we got to shoot it last week. It's a well built rifle and with a Leupold 2-7x rimfire scope we were getting very nice groups with CCI Mini Mags out to 100yrds.
The scaled down Mauser-like bolt was a little stiff but I'm sure it would be smooth as butter after a few more trips to the range. It could probably use a YoDave trigger kit to lighten the trigger pull IMO. Keep the barrel screws torqued to specs and it'll be one of those firearms you'll be keeping for a long time…..and enjoying every minute while shooting it (or while you're just fondling it:))
 
Can't go wrong with a CZ 455 varmint. As for the scope, investing a bit more first will save you money in the end as you will not be pleased if the image you get is not crystal clear. That's my experience anyways. Vortex and Sightrons are good choices. Like others have said, forget 300 yards with a .22lr. If you want precision, you will want to use high end standard velocity ammo (Eley, SK, RWS, Lapua etc.) which is just great for 50 and 100 yards. That is the distance precision shooting with a .22lr is made to be.

Gilbert
 
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