First Antique Gun- some newbie questions, French 1873 MAS

[Clotho]

Are we reading the same thread?

We seem to agree on most points.

Reloads are the best way to go to ensure safety.

Soft lead projectiles of the correct diameter are essential.

Factory loads are dangerous.

Now before I posted the French translation of the engineers report I imagine you didn't know what psi a safe load really was. Now you do. 11600psi.
Also part of his report was the point that an unsafe load is 20813psi. This is consistent with our belief that factory loads are dangerous as the SAAMI spec for 45acp is 21000psi.
This engineer is an expert and we are both amateurs unless you have some credentials I am not aware of. If you can find some error in his math then I encourage you to share it with us.

We both agree that these guns are great fun with proper loads.


The danger lies in someone who doesn't know that factory 45acp should not be used in these guns, acquiring one. I am glad to hear that you are unaware of any problems with your customers. They must be following your advice and using proper loads. You aren't the only one selling these however. There is also the other side of the coin. The newbies who post WTB 1873 revolver in 45acp. Guess what. They actually think you can buy 45acp off the shelf and fire it in these. At some point, someone is going to sell them one without telling them that.

So far we have been lucky but out of all the conversions that people do I feel strongly that this one is most likely to get someone hurt.

 

[H Wally]

So stamp the cylinder cowboy loads only; 11 000 psi or less. Problem solved. I think all sides have beat this horse past death, possibly to a fine paste.

 

[Clotho]

So stamp the cylinder cowboy loads only; 11 000 psi or less. Problem solved. I think all sides have beat this horse past death, possibly to a fine paste.

I think it would be a good idea if people would actually do this but I doubt it will ever happen. You have already lost the collector value so this isn't going to make it any worse. You would probably have to stamp the cylinder 11,600 psi or less and skip the cowboy part as that doesn't mean anything. It's just a marketing term. I haven't been able to find a single standard or manufacturer who will put the actual pressure in print. If someone finds one it would be good to know.

Until then reloads are the only sure thing.

 

[dingus]

well this unknown french engineer expert you mention is baseing his info on a 1873 french gun in 11mm without the relief of presure that altering chamber throats cause.
so its apples and oranges as far as im concerned i go by what i and other real world shooters have experienced not what i read in some old report that no one knows about im talkin real world shootin iron stuff.
explain to me why there hundreds of 130 year old 45 acp converted 1873s out there in use being sold and shooting strong still if they all blow up so easy.
the truth about alot of the ones that were converted in WWI and even WWII was they used hardball 45 acp ammo in them and not two rounds but lots of rounds hunderds in some cases ive imported a few guns that were 45 acp converted war bring back guns yes they were loose but not blowin up or useless im sure some did blow up to it happens with any gun not done right. But your makeing it sound like everyone that was converted blew up after a few shots. they killed plenty of germans in the wars with french 1873s converted to 45 acp and them guns are still around today.



anyway the OP has had his questions answered so i think im done here if anyone wants to PM me and ask any questions about french 1873s in 11 mm or 455 or 45 acp im happy to answer them.
And yes i do have 8 fingers and two thumbs
Still best to reload for the old guns no doubt.

 

[Clotho]

well this unknown french engineer expert you mention is baseing his info on a 1873 french gun in 11mm without the relief of presure that altering chamber throats cause.
so its apples and oranges as far as im concerned i go by what i and other real world shooters have experienced not what i read in some old report that no one knows about im talkin real world shootin iron stuff.
real world experience says your wrong.

So if I understand you correctly you are saying that reaming out the cylinder makes the gun stronger? You are aware that 11mm French Ordnance is the same diameter as 45acp? Nice sales pitch but I'm afraid that this makes no sense. What you are claiming would suggest that you know better than the original designers of this firearm. I'm sorry but all your years of real world shootin iron stuff just doesn't compare.

explain to me why there hunderds of 130 year old 45 acp converted 1873s out there in use being sold and shooting strong still if they all blow up so easy.

Considering they made 337,000 of them hundreds isn't very significant. Obviously the people still shooting them have learned to use soft lead and low pressure. Care to speculate on how many thousands have been blown up?

And yes i do have 8 fingers and two thumbs
Still best to reload for the old guns no doubt.

I am glad for this and yes I agree that reloading is by far the best option here.

 

[dingus]

Im saying (more than once if you look)the chamber throats is where the problem happens in theses 1873 guns.
you would have to measure a few dozen guns cylinders chamber throats in 1873s to see how much they vary. I know because ive had so many go thru my hands they vary alot i dont know why but they just do.
The webley MKIs and MKIIs are all pretty much the same throat dia in every gun.
The to tight a chamber throat or and extra tight bore is what causes the guns to blow up with to hot a load other wise the bullets just get stuck half way down the bore if the load is to light.
Add FMJ bullets to that and it gets worse alot faster at least soft lead gives you some room to play.

If its to heavy a load they blow up simple any gun will if the load is to hot the bullet to big things stress and bust you dont need no engineer to figger that out. If the guns set up right they can handle a decent reload no problem. thats why i say to slug the bores check the chamber throats.
Thats why elmer keith says to never shoot bullets down a bore or thru a chamber throat that is .2 tho undersized to the bullet you use.

 

[Clotho]

Im saying (more than once if you look)the chamber throats is where the problem happens in theses 1873 guns.
you would have to measure a few dozen guns cylinders chamber throats in 1873s to see how much they vary. I know because ive had so many go thru my hands they vary alot i dont know why but they just do.
The webley MKIs and MKIIs are all pretty much the same throat dia in every gun.
The to tight a chamber throat or and extra tight bore is what causes the guns to blow up with to hot a load other wise the bullets just get stuck half way down the bore if the load is to light.
Add FMJ bullets to that and it gets worse alot faster at least soft lead gives you some room to play.

If its to heavy a load they blow up simple any gun will if the load is to hot the bullet to big things stress and bust you dont need no engineer to figger that out. If the guns set up right they can handle a decent reload no problem. thats why i say to slug the bores check the chamber throats.
Thats why elmer keith says to never shoot bullets down a bore or thru a chamber throat that is .2 tho undersized to the bullet you use.

So let me get this straight. Since 11mm French Ordnance and 45acp are the same diameter you're telling us that they made the original throats too tight? You can't possibly expect me or anyone else with any common sense to believe that. They made 337 Thousand of them for various countries. Each of those countries had inspectors to ensure the quality of the arms and if the inspectors didn't catch it they all had armorers whose job it is to maintain and repair them. Surely a defect of this magnitude must be documented somewhere.

I will agree that I have seen much greater variation in antiques than in modern arms. I also agree that slugging the bore is essential for this reason. This is also another reason to reload as you can better match the bullet diameter to the bore. The guns produced for the civilian markets seem to show the widest variation. The military arms not nearly as much. What variation I have found in military arms can easily be attributed to wear.

 

[tiriaq]

It is time.