First Centrefire PRS purchase.

[rugbydave]

Note... I do not recommend the OPs desire to get a 223. Maybe reread my first post.. that is #11

I have been there done that. I used to think it was a great entry point.. but have posted like the 4th time... I don't recommend it today.

Just reread my posts... I mean really reread my posts... like my first post #11

Is it a workable options at moderate distances? Can you use this chamber and hit targets out to moderate distances? Of course... and the ballistics aren't all that far behind the very popular 6BR family ubber popular in PRS today. Is it the SAME? nope and I have illustrated that... I think very clearly

You were there for my first BCPRL match... I believe you were shooting a 6mm of somekind. I was shooting a 223. How did our scores compare?

I don't recommend the 223 not because it is not capable for moderate distance matches, it is for all the other issues I have already discussed in this post..... maybe post #11

I think this horse is well and truly dead... but have it.

Jerry

You didn't recommend the .223, that's true. You did then get into a pissing match about how the .223 "is basically the same" as shooting a Dasher.

If you want to compare scores why don't we compare scores from a 2-day national level match we were both at with 20+ stages out to 1200 or so yards instead of a single day, 6 stage match shot inside 600 yards with multiple target failures and all the teething problems of a brand new league (of which I'm an organizer/MD)? I can post the scores if you'd like?

At the end of the day, breadth of specific experience plays a big part in the validity of one's suggestions. Some posters in this thread have a deeper breadth of experience and some use vague wording to insinuate that they do.

 

[Johnny Boom]

Hey everyone,

Been shooting rimfire PRS for a while now and looking to transcend into the centrefire realm. Unfortunately I don't have the $$$ to build off of a custom action so I'm likely looking at picking up a factory rifle to get me in the game and going from there. Wondering what everyone's experiences are that can lend to some good advice. I was leaning toward .223 as its less expensive and will allow me to practice more often, although a buddy of mine shoots .308 and we had talked about going in on reloading components together.

I'm not sure the exact distance I'll be able to shoot out to but I suspect it'll be somewhere in the 700/800 range. I've looked at a few different rifles, including the Ruger Predator and Savage offerings. Curious as to which route may be best. I like to tinker and would prefer the option for AICS mags down the road. However I have heard that Remington quality has sunk as of late and would probably steer clear if that's the case.

Thanks and hope to hear from you guys!

Hey OP,

I'm a big fan of the 223 for a number of reasons. It's easy to get components, they're easy to load for, accurate, relatively inexpensive, low recoil, good barrel wear, and similar ballistics and wind drift to the various 6s until about 400 or 500 yards or so.

Over here in the PRS Northeast Division, I noticed over the last couple of seasons that it's very common for new shooters to start on 223s. Once you get comfortable with all the other good stuff that goes into PRS like position building, managing your time, wind calls, etc. then it makes a lot of sense to move up to a 6 or 6.5 of some sort. However, last year in Thunder Valley, Ohio, I was surprised to see the top tactical shooter in the top 20 overall (maybe top 10, I'm too lazy to look it up) with a 223. Based on my totally unscientific observations, it seems like I see more 223 than 308 lately.

However, Northeast PRS tends to lean towards shorter distances (400-700 yard average) and more positional than out West, but guys like RugbyDave and RGV shoot a lot in the Northwest and can correct me if I'm wrong.

Many serious competitors have a 223 trainer that is an exact or close duplicate of their match rifle. So you could start with a 223 and if you're liking the sport, keep it as your trainer and then move to a different calibre for your match rifle. If you want to start with a 6.5 Creedmoor, that's a fine choice as well and can be rebarrelled later. As RugbyDave was saying earlier, it really depends how much you think you're going to shoot.

I'm not a Remington 700 fan, despite having one as my 223 trainer and having put thousands of rounds through it in various calibres. Of course, the only thing about it that is still Remington is the receiver. Everything else, including the bolt has been changed. Some batches lately have had poor primary extraction, so be careful if you are going to go used.

I have been very impressed by the Tikkas though. They shoot great out of the box, slick bolt, nice triggers, and very impressive accuracy when fitted with match barrels. Good aftermarket support as well.


Good luck and good shooting!

 

[Mystic Precision]

Ah, the name calling phase of the debate... love to chat but heading out to do more ELR rimfire R&D. Focus will be on 490m.. but also 529m and maybe further.

Lots to learn....

JohnnyBoom, excellent post.

Jerry

 

[.308ACADIAN]

I have not read through all the comments, but there are plenty of pretty affordable options to get into the game, I went with a tikka ctr in 308, now in a chassis and will upgrade barrel and perhaps change the caliber but I think I should have a long while before I need to do that.
The longest range I have access to is 600m.
308 and 223 are good enough for those kind of distance says I, because I saw plenty of excellence scores with those calibers. Best score was shot with a Remington 700 in 223.

Bottom line
If you are new and on a budget go with 223 or 308, you can shoot on the strict caliber use Military bases, very low cost of match ammo and components, fgmm at 1.50/round. And the most important thing is to practice, get experience, learn how to run your rig.
My tikka is now in a Cadex chassis and is very capable, I am not.
Now I am fidling with an ultimatum action in 223. I don't regret this choice but it is a hell of a lot more work.
You could get a tikka, savage, howa or Remington in both those calibers with a decent FFP scope and show up any one showing up with some 10k super custom rig.

Edit: I just read the first post and I think I would recommend the savage if you like to tinker, I would also look at the bergara if you are on a budget because from all the super expert information on YouTube they are accurate, the come with aics magwells, are compatible with 700 parts and come with a nice looking stock

 

[.308ACADIAN]

Also read some of Jerry's post, he has provided so much to the shooting sports just here on cgn. Just don't think your going to shoot 1/4 moa out to a thousand yards with surplus ammo on your first time out.

But if you do, well

 

[kthomas]

Also read some of Jerry's post, he has provided so much to the shooting sports just here on cgn. Just don't think your going to shoot 1/4 moa out to a thousand yards with surplus ammo on your first time out.

But if you do, well

He seems knowledgeable about F-class (never shot it myself so can't really say, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt), but he certainly has a lot to learn about the PRS/NRL discipline.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with learning, we all need to start somewhere. But I think he disingenously portrays himself as an authority on the subject, when he doesn't have much experience in it, and unfortunately leads newer shooters trying to get into the sport down the wrong rabbit holes.

Anyways, I'll go back to watching this thread from the sidelines. Hard for me to get involved in any precision rifle threads on CGN these days, too much misinformation and egos.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Hoop has an ID of 19"... winds 6 to 10 mph... moving all over the place.



A number of hits at 490ms in some gusty switchy winds.



Nothing to do with this post but ....

Jerry

 

[Shawn_338]

Once again the great Jerry king of all shooting comes into a thread and ruins it. To the op if it’s your first rifle for prs style shooting I’d suggest a tikka in 6.5 creed with a good scope that tracks well and a zero stop. Lots of great factory options for ammo and if you reload even better. Also the tikka has a good aftermarket following with lots of options for stocks and chassis. Bolt is modular so no need to take it to a gunsmith to add a bolt knob. Get one with a threaded barrel and add your flavor of brake and go shoot.

 

[Tikka223]

I think if anyone here is entitled to share an opinion it is Jerry. Perhaps he should post a picture of all the trophies he has won so you folks understand that the man genuinely knows what he’s talking about. Not only that, he is extremely approachable and regularly offers sound advice to new shooters to help them get set up and enjoy the sport.

FTR is not PRS, I agree. But the skills you learn shooting a square range are immediately transferable to PRS.

As for the OP, I would also recommend 6.5CM. It is basically main stream now so components are easily sourced, load data is available, and the caliber performs well.

 

[rgv]

I think if anyone here is entitled to share an opinion it is Jerry. Perhaps he should post a picture of all the trophies he has won so you folks understand that the man genuinely knows what he’s talking about. Not only that, he is extremely approachable and regularly offers sound advice to new shooters to help them get set up and enjoy the sport.

Not trying to offend you, but in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Winning a gong at a local match doesn't mean much. I won four club matches last year (out of four), yet when I cross the border, I'm just a dude with a rifle and not even close to being a contender, never mind any sort of authority.

And before you award him the cgn philanthropy award, you'll notice his "sound advice" is always followed with solicitation to sell that person something. That doesn't match up to "sound advice".

 

[njohnson]

FTR is not PRS, I agree. But the skills you learn shooting a square range are immediately transferable to PRS.

I think RGV was trying to point out that square range, with sighters, wind flags and neighbours targets to read off is a tad different.

I say this as a lifelong square range guy who expects his first foray into PRS to be an eye opener ( read mild spanking ). It will be fun to develop the new skill set via seeing what your deficiencies are, which is where the best lessons are taught.

I like Jerry, respect his experience and purchase items from him, so this isn’t personal but I can tell you in my limited experience in non square range time it’s a different enough world that it’s not a direct crossover.

Apparently even one of my square range icons, G David Tubb tried his hand at PRS and was humbled. The guy has more US National Hi Power championships, Hi Power Silhouette Championships, Hi Power Long Range etc. He’s doing the ELR stuff now.

 

[Snowballs]

Hey OP,

I'm a big fan of the 223 for a number of reasons. It's easy to get components, they're easy to load for, accurate, relatively inexpensive, low recoil, good barrel wear, and similar ballistics and wind drift to the various 6s until about 400 or 500 yards or so.

Over here in the PRS Northeast Division, I noticed over the last couple of seasons that it's very common for new shooters to start on 223s. Once you get comfortable with all the other good stuff that goes into PRS like position building, managing your time, wind calls, etc. then it makes a lot of sense to move up to a 6 or 6.5 of some sort. However, last year in Thunder Valley, Ohio, I was surprised to see the top tactical shooter in the top 20 overall (maybe top 10, I'm too lazy to look it up) with a 223. Based on my totally unscientific observations, it seems like I see more 223 than 308 lately.

However, Northeast PRS tends to lean towards shorter distances (400-700 yard average) and more positional than out West, but guys like RugbyDave and RGV shoot a lot in the Northwest and can correct me if I'm wrong.

Many serious competitors have a 223 trainer that is an exact or close duplicate of their match rifle. So you could start with a 223 and if you're liking the sport, keep it as your trainer and then move to a different calibre for your match rifle. If you want to start with a 6.5 Creedmoor, that's a fine choice as well and can be rebarrelled later. As RugbyDave was saying earlier, it really depends how much you think you're going to shoot.

I'm not a Remington 700 fan, despite having one as my 223 trainer and having put thousands of rounds through it in various calibres. Of course, the only thing about it that is still Remington is the receiver. Everything else, including the bolt has been changed. Some batches lately have had poor primary extraction, so be careful if you are going to go used.

I have been very impressed by the Tikkas though. They shoot great out of the box, slick bolt, nice triggers, and very impressive accuracy when fitted with match barrels. Good aftermarket support as well.


Good luck and good shooting!

Johnny Boom, IMHO yours was the most encouraging post in the thread and inspiring for a new guy.

Been following this tread and looks like lots of opinions in this segment of the shooting sport.

I am also a new guy who is dipping his toe into the PRS pool for FUN.

No longer into big boom sticks and the .223 is the caliber I want to start with.

No interest in reloading and I will be tapping into my .223 collection to start.

My selected rifle is a Howa APC in .223. I'll mount up an optic I can afford and start the game.

Thanks again for the advice!

 

[adamg]

Johnny Boom, IMHO yours was the most encouraging post in the thread and inspiring for a new guy.

Been following this tread and looks like lots of opinions in this segment of the shooting sport.

I am also a new guy who is dipping his toe into the PRS pool for FUN.

No longer into big boom sticks and the .223 is the caliber I want to start with.

No interest in reloading and I will be tapping into my .223 collection to start.

My selected rifle is a Howa APC in .223. I'll mount up an optic I can afford and start the game.

Thanks again for the advice!

Snowballs, I don't know anything about that gun. A quick google search says it is a 9" twist barrel, which might incur accuracy reduction on the heavy bullets at long range. I haven't had that effect myself, I usually end up with the opposite world of running light bullets in fast twist 223 barrels. Though admittedly I shot just as nice groups in my 7" twist RPR 223 with 55gr soft point Hornady bullets as I did with 80gr EDLM bullets, so maybe the alleged accuracy reduction is a myth.

 

[Alpheus]

Snowballs, I don't know anything about that gun. A quick google search says it is a 9" twist barrel, which might incur accuracy reduction on the heavy bullets at long range. I haven't had that effect myself, I usually end up with the opposite world of running light bullets in fast twist 223 barrels. Though admittedly I shot just as nice groups in my 7" twist RPR 223 with 55gr soft point Hornady bullets as I did with 80gr EDLM bullets, so maybe the alleged accuracy reduction is a myth.

The "accuracy reduction" is in reality the BC of a bullet being reduced due to be under-stabilized. A 80gr in a 9 twist will have the BC reduced by about 10%, a 70gr is reduced by 3% or less.
The reverse is not true, there is no penalty from "over-stabilizing" a bullet, this is why you should always pick the tightest twist if able to because it means you can shoot every bullet weight without penalty.
If you go really nuts with the lightest bullet possible in the tightest twist, you can make the bullet disintegrate, but that takes some effort to get the RPMs that high.

For a 9 twist, you might be able to push a 70gr fast enough to fully stabilize, but 60-65 is your effective limit.
https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

 

[Snowballs]

The "accuracy reduction" is in reality the BC of a bullet being reduced due to be under-stabilized. A 80gr in a 9 twist will have the BC reduced by about 10%, a 70gr is reduced by 3% or less.
The reverse is not true, there is no penalty from "over-stabilizing" a bullet, this is why you should always pick the tightest twist if able to because it means you can shoot every bullet weight without penalty.
If you go really nuts with the lightest bullet possible in the tightest twist, you can make the bullet disintegrate, but that takes some effort to get the RPMs that high.

For a 9 twist, you might be able to push a 70gr fast enough to fully stabilize, but 60-65 is your effective limit.
https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

Thanks guys, I will commence the journey of learning and try various ammo to see what the new rifle likes. Really appreciate the input.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I think if anyone here is entitled to share an opinion it is Jerry. Perhaps he should post a picture of all the trophies he has won so you folks understand that the man genuinely knows what he’s talking about. Not only that, he is extremely approachable and regularly offers sound advice to new shooters to help them get set up and enjoy the sport.

FTR is not PRS, I agree. But the skills you learn shooting a square range are immediately transferable to PRS.

As for the OP, I would also recommend 6.5CM. It is basically main stream now so components are easily sourced, load data is available, and the caliber performs well.

Tikka223, 308Acadian, Njohnson, thanks for your positive thoughts.

Tikka223, posting more pics will not help. Been there done that... and that is not the point.

Today, discussions quickly go from debates of the topic to attacking the opposition when the debate is lost. My kids had a term for this but I can't remember.

If that fails, then the mobbing begins.

There is also a common practise to make up a narrative to suit a point of view. The 'he only shoots on a square range'... man, I would love to but all the ranges in the OK Valley are very short in distances so I am up in the hills for 95% of my season. Very few wind flags up there.. except maybe the trees and the occasional flag I put up. And I am surprised they would think that given the number of pics I have posted about where I do my shooting.

I got into PRS due to a fair critique of never shooting a match... any match. I set up what I thought were good ideas and have had very positive results in my first couple of matches. Well, that wasn't enough... "you gotta go to a bigger match".

Went to AB which was my 2nd CF match and 3rd match and had an absolute trainwreck. My scores sucked horridly.. learnt a ton. Came back, regrouped and did well at a number of matches the rest of the year. Now club matches aren't enough. I don't know... getting on the podium in a field of 72 shooters I think is doing pretty good.

Winning the CRPS Western Championships after 2 days of crazy winds with a rimfire out to 400+yds... ton of fun.

But you see, the fence posts will keep moving. There will always be a higher hurdle... so it is not about the information/tech which is being debated good or bad. It is about trying to prove one's status in a crowd that will never be happy.... to get the nod and secret handshake.

Not trying to be an expert... 52yrs, overweight, bad back and knees... don't see any national titles in my future. But I have applied my thoughts to practise.. and have proven them to work well in competition. Whether that level of competition meets anothers opinion, I really don't care. There will always be a "bigger match"

Wonder if the mobbing part of this process will begin???

Jerry

 

[Johnny Boom]

Johnny Boom, IMHO yours was the most encouraging post in the thread and inspiring for a new guy.

Been following this tread and looks like lots of opinions in this segment of the shooting sport.

I am also a new guy who is dipping his toe into the PRS pool for FUN.

No longer into big boom sticks and the .223 is the caliber I want to start with.

No interest in reloading and I will be tapping into my .223 collection to start.

My selected rifle is a Howa APC in .223. I'll mount up an optic I can afford and start the game.

Thanks again for the advice!

Thanks @Snowballs, I've been at this for a few years now, and I'll be the first to admit I don't have all the answers, but I'll pass on what I've observed for what it's worth. I've had the pleasure to be able to shoot with many of the guys on this forum. Some of them are very experienced competitors and have a great wealth of knowledge.

I've also had the privilege of shooting with some of the best in US. If you can get down there for matches, I highly recommend it.

It's a lot of fun, but it's really important to have your rifle, kit, and system well sorted out for matches. There's a lot to do at a PRS match besides the actual shooting. It's also a really good idea to get out to a few club level matches or a clinic before dropping a lot of money.

I'm not personally familiar with your proposed platform but I would caution you that whatever rifle and ammo combo you come up with is capable of 1 MOA accuracy minimum. I was using factory ammo through my trainer that was 2 MOA and it was causing me more frustration than the savings were worth. Basically you want to reduce the amount of uncertainty wherever possible.

Also, if you're just starting, I would say don't worry too much about long bullets with big BCs that your barrel can't handle. If you're loving the game, you will be rebarreling anyway.

Cheers!

 

[Snowballs]

Thanks @Snowballs, I've been at this for a few years now, and I'll be the first to admit I don't have all the answers, but I'll pass on what I've observed for what its worth. I've had the pleasure to be able to shoot with many of the guys on this forum. Some of them are very experienced competitors and have a great wealth of knowledge.

It's a lot of fun, but it's really important to have your rifle, kit, and system well sorted out for matches. There's a lot to do at a PRS match besides the actual shooting. It's also a really good idea to get out to a few club level matches or a clinic before dropping a lot of money.

I'm not personally familiar with your proposed platform but I would caution you that whatever rifle and ammo combo you come up with is capable of 1 MOA accuracy minimum. I was using factory ammo through my trainer that was 2 MOA and it was causing me more frustration than the savings were worth. Basically you want to reduce the amount of uncertainty wherever possible.

Also, if you're just starting, I would say don't worry too much about long bullets with big BCs that your barrel can't handle. If you're loving the game, you will be rebarreling anyway.

Cheers!

Thank you for the sage advice. I will start posting my adventures once I get my rifle set up. Cheers to you too...

 

[Claytom Magnet]

I'm just planning on getting a 223 savage 10t-sr and toss it on a MDT chassis and go to tac division. Its cheap, have a ton of 223 kicking around, thanks Trudeau, give me some experience and eventually get something in 6 or 6.5 down the line

 

[njohnson]

Its cheap, have a ton of 223 kicking around, thanks Trudeau, give me some experience and eventually get something in 6 or 6.5 down the line

I’m in the same boat, now have a ton of LC 556 brass loaded with 77 grain Sierras kicking around. I also have a Rem 700, PTG coned 223 bolt and a Krieger 7.7” twist Heavy Palma barrelled action that I will have to get into a stock now to try out all this ammo. Guess it’s time to finish my 223 bolt gun build.