First O/U ?
- Thread starter park.city
- Start date
Now for some shocking advice: Don't buy a gun.
Join the local clay club and use the gun you have. Clay target shooters are usually pretty good about sharing advice and letting other people try their guns. In time you will get a better idea of what will work for you.
Brownings and Berettas tend to fit differently. Both are good guns but until you try one or two no one can say which one is better for you.
12 or 20 is a personal choice. A 20 will be lighter in the field but may be a little harder on you if you are shooting 100 plus rounds of sporting clays on a regular basis. The 12 gauge is more common among clay target shooters but many excellent scores have been shoot with the 20 even some by me.
The best advice is to avoid the low-end crap made in Turkey. Stick with the tried and proven designs. They may cost a little more but retain their value better and can be depended upon.
yeah, i am. the same load will kick more out of a lighter gun, understood. i guess what i'm asking is, is the extra kick really that noticeable with target loads to warrant not going with 20ga ? everyone handles kick differently but lets say you shot a 12 ga for a day and then a 20 ga for a day, is the lighter gun really going to be like, woah that hurts, i wish i had this exact same gun in 12ga ?
No. I go back and forth between 12 and 20 quite often and don't find much difference. 12 gauge target loads are usually 1-1/8 ounce while 20 gauge is 7/8 ounce at similar velocities. The heavier shell in the heavier gun usually feels about the same as the lighter shell in the lighter gun. Where I notice a difference is the extra pound of gun hauling it through the bush all day.
First: you will never regret buying quality (I am not a fan of the Stoeger, Savage and most Turkish made lines of inexpensive shotguns)!
Second: as Claybuster said, most people at your local range will probably be happy to let you try their gun. I know some of my guns have as many rounds through them by other people as they do by me !
I shoot a lot of clays a year (not very well unfortunately), I personally prefer the 20 or 28 gauge but would never say no to a quality 12 that fit me. With proper technique, a good quality O/U that fits you should not wear you out using typical target loads.
Second: as Claybuster said, most people at your local range will probably be happy to let you try their gun. I know some of my guns have as many rounds through them by other people as they do by me !
I shoot a lot of clays a year (not very well unfortunately), I personally prefer the 20 or 28 gauge but would never say no to a quality 12 that fit me. With proper technique, a good quality O/U that fits you should not wear you out using typical target loads.
- Location
- Barrie, Ontario
Its not a measure of gauge, there are plenty of 20/28g that are 8.5+ lbs and easily help with recoil. However none of them are 'field' guns. If you want something to carry in the field as , one of the prerequisites, it has to be light. Hauling a 8.5lb gun sounds easy, but believe me it gets harder every second! And in a field setting you only shoot it 10 times a day if you are lucky, so whats the point of a heavier gun?
The problem arises when you try to take the same gun to the range. The repeated strain, even with lighter loads, is very noticeable. The key there is repeated strain. It leads to flinch, it leads to bruising, it leads to closing your eyes, and ultimately, 100% is not transferred to you, some is absorbed by 'slop' in the receiver, so it leads to wear. Not only weight, but quality should be examined, which is why there are no pros shooting Stoeger Condors - even though they weigh as much as my boat anchor.
There are guns in middle earth, but of course it is important to note that 'field' guns do not have a strong pistol grip, usually they are straight grip or Prince Of Wales modified grip, not entirely the best for sporting.
I think of it like this
Mgun x Vgun = Mshot(Vshot) + Mwad(Vwad) + Mpowder(Vpowder)
these are the only factors (mass x velocity) that affect Vgun, or the actual recoil. btw, poor fit can increase the perceived recoil, which is just as bad!
If we isolate the Vgun (recoil), we are dividing the small energy of the cartridge by the large mass of the gun. The larger the mass of the gun, the lower the recoil, and it goes down very quickly.
So - no perfect gun for multi applications is the story. But, carrying a sporter in the bush sucks. So get a Italian made O/U field grade ( I stand by the Franchi Instinct L in 12g and Epps has a couple used) and shoot it learning what you really want from an O/U.
C
I use a 20 gauge 725 sporting for sporting clays, and a 28 gauge 725 sporting for skeet. I shoot a 12 gauge 725 trap for trap. The 20 and 28 gauge guns are lighter, but I have no issues shooting a few hundred rounds in a day with either of them. I actually find the 28 gauge the most pleasant to shoot, followed by the 20 gauge.
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I agree with Cardamonfrost. A decent hunting gun can be used just fine for casual target shooting, the reverse is not true, most target doubles are too heavy for all day carry, typically 8-9 pounds. They are made that way so that you can shoot them all day, maybe 200-300 rounds, without getting tired and beat up by repeated pounding, and also so that the gun can take the pounding of 50-75-100,000 rounds before needing overhaul. This type of overbuilt (if there can be such a thing) quality is of no value to a hunter or casual target shooter.
A hunter who wants to do some casual target work for practice and fun, say five to ten times a year , maybe up to 100 rounds or so per visit would be much better served with a decent field gun as an all purpose gun, preferably around 7 - 7 1/4 pounds in 12 gauge,
6 1/4- 6 1/2 pounds in a 20. Recoil of the 20 with standard 7/8 oz hunting loads will be similar to the 12 gauge with standard 1 1/8 oz hunting loads. Compare the 1 oz twenty gauge to the 1 1/4 oz twelve gauge, again similar. For upland hunting only the lighter 20 gets my vote but if waterfowl with steel shot may be part of the picture the 12 has a clear advantage. If you really think you will shoot 500-1000 rounds on the range in a year the twelve is much cheaper to shoot, 20 gauge ammo averages quite a bit more expensive, no promo or sales here. However in my experience most beginners overestimate just how often they will really go shooting and how much they will shoot once the novelty wears off. If you find after a year or more that you are getting addicted to one or more of the clays games you will by then likely have decided on the best gun for you for this purpose. Time to buy a new gun!
Keep your field gun for hunting!
Gun specific - you can't go wrong with a good used Browning or Beretta, they will outlast you and if looked after will retain most or all of their value when you decide to change horses some day. Most new Italian field guns other than Beretta are the same under the skin and will serve you well at a moderate price. Then the water gets muddy as the price goes down. Russian guns can be rugged and reliable but are not known for their handling qualities. Anything from China or Brazil is immediately suspect. Turkish made guns, many with North American brand names are hit and miss. CZ, Mossberg, Savage/Stevens, Webley & Scott and a few others have a good track record of putting out decent guns at a moderate price. Some others not so much so. They will last a lifetime of hunting and should stand up to casual clay target shooting for a long time but don't expect them to be rock solid reliable like a more expensive gun, there is a good reason a Beretta or Browning costs more. And for an all purpose gun you can't beat choke tubes but if you don't get a full set with the gun some less popular brands can be difficult to find tubes for. Good Luck, Jim
A hunter who wants to do some casual target work for practice and fun, say five to ten times a year , maybe up to 100 rounds or so per visit would be much better served with a decent field gun as an all purpose gun, preferably around 7 - 7 1/4 pounds in 12 gauge,
6 1/4- 6 1/2 pounds in a 20. Recoil of the 20 with standard 7/8 oz hunting loads will be similar to the 12 gauge with standard 1 1/8 oz hunting loads. Compare the 1 oz twenty gauge to the 1 1/4 oz twelve gauge, again similar. For upland hunting only the lighter 20 gets my vote but if waterfowl with steel shot may be part of the picture the 12 has a clear advantage. If you really think you will shoot 500-1000 rounds on the range in a year the twelve is much cheaper to shoot, 20 gauge ammo averages quite a bit more expensive, no promo or sales here. However in my experience most beginners overestimate just how often they will really go shooting and how much they will shoot once the novelty wears off. If you find after a year or more that you are getting addicted to one or more of the clays games you will by then likely have decided on the best gun for you for this purpose. Time to buy a new gun!
Keep your field gun for hunting!
Gun specific - you can't go wrong with a good used Browning or Beretta, they will outlast you and if looked after will retain most or all of their value when you decide to change horses some day. Most new Italian field guns other than Beretta are the same under the skin and will serve you well at a moderate price. Then the water gets muddy as the price goes down. Russian guns can be rugged and reliable but are not known for their handling qualities. Anything from China or Brazil is immediately suspect. Turkish made guns, many with North American brand names are hit and miss. CZ, Mossberg, Savage/Stevens, Webley & Scott and a few others have a good track record of putting out decent guns at a moderate price. Some others not so much so. They will last a lifetime of hunting and should stand up to casual clay target shooting for a long time but don't expect them to be rock solid reliable like a more expensive gun, there is a good reason a Beretta or Browning costs more. And for an all purpose gun you can't beat choke tubes but if you don't get a full set with the gun some less popular brands can be difficult to find tubes for. Good Luck, Jim
you guys bashing Turkish guns, are not seeing the whole picture. The advantage to a Turkish gun, is plain as day. If you ever start shooting clay targets and leave your gun in the rack for a few mins, with all the B guns. It will the last one to go missing. Naaww just kidding, buy a B gun
Generally target guns tend to be heavier, but not always. For example, a Browning 725 Sporting in 12 gauge is actually lighter than a Citori Lightning in 12 gauge with shorter barrels. I personally like a 5-1/2 to 6 lb gun for upland hunting, and a 7 to 8 lb gun for target shooting.
I'd like to address the Turkish gun bashing here. Like all things made all over the world, some are better than others. However in recent years Turkish guns have come a long way from what others have mentioned here. For full disclosure, let me mention that I own B guns, but with some research you will see that there are Turkish guns available with high quality components and finish. I personally have a Turkish o/u that would stand up to any B gun. Also, many gun manufacturers utilize Turkish components and facilities. Buying based on brand alone is not always the best buy.
good info, thanks. yeah i've been looking closely at the franchi's from EPPS, almost pulled the trigger (no pun intended) on the 20g when i first saw it. will need to shoulder it along with others.
ashcroft- you make some very good points as well, i didn't realize 20ga is more expensive than 12, field wise not an issue as apparently i don't get many shots off but on the range it may be a factor. you're right that people over estimate how much they'll shoot,
i think i'm first going to shoulder a bunch and see whats what. I like the franchi but if it doesn't fit then no sense forcing it. if it turns our one of the b's fit better then i'll have to wait for one to come up on the EE, and in the mean time maybe able to shoot a couple of other peoples.
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In my post I qualified "most Turkish" with "inexpensive". The Turks are indeed producing some pretty nice guns, but they tend to be in the higher price range. The lower priced ones are still crap ! Not that the "B" guns are the "end all, be all" answer to shotguns, but, my 30 years of shotgunning experience has shown me that most people, when shooting a "B" gun after buying an inexpensive Stoeger, Savage or (insert any other cheap brand here) that handles like a club, have the same epiphany : "I should have started with this !".
I get the "epiphany" statement and have seen it, but like you said it's usually when moving from something like a Condor or Maverick to a o/u with a price tag around $2000..It better be nicer!
If we want to compare apples to apples then we should be comparing quality to quality. No doubt a $500 Mossberg is no comparison to a B gun, however I can give an example of an ATA SP over under that retails well under $1500. A beautiful gun, very good quality and save some money for ammo.
calvados.boulard
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Victoria BC
Reliable has Beretta SP1 Sporting on sale right now. I have one and love it. Just as good as my 725s, but a different beast none the less.
Thanks,
Cal.
Thanks,
Cal.
- Location
- Barrie, Ontario
Did you buy the Franchi?
I see the one on Epps just went to sold.
C
I see the one on Epps just went to sold
.C
northern skies
CGN frequent flyer
I had the same situation as you. After making do with my 12-gauge pump in the woods for years, I finally decided it was unacceptable. I wanted a 20 gauge, but was willing to consider a 28.
I spent the last 5 months combing the market for something that was nice to shoot, was going to last, and wasn't over-valued.
I considered everything from steven's 311's, to an older franchi, to F.A.I.R., Miroku's, SKB 500, to the Instinct L.
There was a lot of crap out there, and a lot of the ideal things seemed like unobtanium. I liked the charles daly miroku, but the comb was unusable for a left-handed shooter. I would have snapped up the SKB the minute I found the right one, but every one I ran into was a 12 gauge. I kept considering the Instinct L, but I thought it was overpriced and that bothered me enough to keep waiting.
In the end, the patience paid off and I found an older 20ga. Citori for $1150 a couple of weeks ago. I'm happy with it because it's configured just how I want it and fits just right. I'm so happy about it that I'm thinking about getting out of 12 gauge altogether- I don't really hunt geese, and I'm more enamoured with the thought of getting the ducks over the decoys. I'll just have to see what kind of patterns I can get out of it and get through the honeymoon phase first. 20-gauge seems to bring more versatility than the other options did. I'm going to choose it for turkey over the 12, grouse, probably waterfowl, and even deer while grouse hunting... I tried some slugs out of the IC barrel with great success making it a decent 50yd combination gun.
Just be patient and persistent, the right gun is out there.
I spent the last 5 months combing the market for something that was nice to shoot, was going to last, and wasn't over-valued.
I considered everything from steven's 311's, to an older franchi, to F.A.I.R., Miroku's, SKB 500, to the Instinct L.
There was a lot of crap out there, and a lot of the ideal things seemed like unobtanium. I liked the charles daly miroku, but the comb was unusable for a left-handed shooter. I would have snapped up the SKB the minute I found the right one, but every one I ran into was a 12 gauge. I kept considering the Instinct L, but I thought it was overpriced and that bothered me enough to keep waiting.
In the end, the patience paid off and I found an older 20ga. Citori for $1150 a couple of weeks ago. I'm happy with it because it's configured just how I want it and fits just right. I'm so happy about it that I'm thinking about getting out of 12 gauge altogether- I don't really hunt geese, and I'm more enamoured with the thought of getting the ducks over the decoys. I'll just have to see what kind of patterns I can get out of it and get through the honeymoon phase first. 20-gauge seems to bring more versatility than the other options did. I'm going to choose it for turkey over the 12, grouse, probably waterfowl, and even deer while grouse hunting... I tried some slugs out of the IC barrel with great success making it a decent 50yd combination gun.
Just be patient and persistent, the right gun is out there.
funny you mentioned that, Cardamonfrost will be happy that i actually just bought a brand new franchi instinct sl, unfortunately i didn't exactly get my way and it is 12ga but i didn't have much of a choice. I won't say what i paid for it but i will say that the store miss-priced it and i got it for a steal.
thats my update, thanks for the advice everyone.
