First or second focal plane

UncleWalther

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I'm going to buy a Schmidt and Bender PMII 5-25x56 scope for my Swiss Arms Sniper. I keep waivering between getting a first versus second focal plane model. All of my shooting with this rifle will be done at the local rifle range, where there are targets set at marked distances from 25m out to 400m, so estimating range/distance is not an issue.

Any recommendations on which way I should flop on this decision?
 
Do you want the reticle to become larger and coarser as power is increased? If so, get FFP.
 
Unless ranging is an issue for you go with what you are most comfortable with. I am accustomed to SFP and the only time I bought a FFP I sold it within weeks as I just couldn't get used to it.
 
Unless ranging is an issue for you go with what you are most comfortable with. I am accustomed to SFP and the only time I bought a FFP I sold it within weeks as I just couldn't get used to it.

This is your answer. FFP is great for ranging as the reticle remains to scale with the power settings, allowing you to use a ranging reticle like mil-dots at any setting. SFP optics do not offer this. A specific power setting must be used to range find accurately. Additionally, FFP optics are supposed to track better throughout their magnification range, meaning less parallax issues. Or so I'm told.

I say if you're benching it, go with SFP unless you wish to have and use a ranging type reticle. In which case the FFP offers a slight advantage.

TDC
 
Not sure. But I do want to place tight groups on stationary targets.
Then you'll probably be happiest with a second-focal plane reticle. Especially at long distance.
I had a FFP in 6x-24x, and while it was a cool scope, the relative thickness of the crosswires made it hard to accurately aim at very small things, like 1/2 MOA targets.
When I get solvent again, I'll certainly buy another FFP scope; but really that sort of thing (IMHO) is best suited to hunting large game (or large-ish targets) at unknown distances.
 
Then you'll probably be happiest with a second-focal plane reticle. Especially at long distance.
I had a FFP in 6x-24x, and while it was a cool scope, the relative thickness of the crosswires made it hard to accurately aim at very small things, like 1/2 MOA targets.
When I get solvent again, I'll certainly buy another FFP scope; but really that sort of thing (IMHO) is best suited to hunting large game (or large-ish targets) at unknown distances.

If you have a ranging reticle and know how to use it. Otherwise I agree, stick with the SFP.

TDC
 
The issue with hunting with FFP, is the reticle is too small to see at low power, I estimate about 99% of FClass shooters and all BR types use 2nd FP, reasons already correctly outlined.
 
The issue with hunting with FFP, is the reticle is too small to see at low power, I estimate about 99% of FClass shooters and all BR types use 2nd FP, reasons already correctly outlined.

......and too large at high power,which is especially a hindrance for long range hunting, the larger reticle has a tendency to cover the target/animal.
 
IMO, the FFP scopes are geared towards professional/law/military uses.

The cross hair coarsness isn't an issue when trying to neutralize targets, and it does offer fast range estimation in these situations at any magnification.

SFP for long range/competition/target shooting as many of the variables are already known and you can have a nice fine cross hair/reticle leaving your target more easily visible.

Personally I prefer the second focal plane.
 
A point that has thus far been missed.

In 2FP scopes the erector tube (along with its inherent error) lies between the reticle and target. The 1FP format naturally eliminates this error since nothing adjustable lies between the reticle and target.

This according to USO.
 
Ok, lets dispel this myth that all FFP scopes have cross hairs that are large and mask your target. SOME FFP scopes have reticles that obscure the target. They don't all.

This is a Premier Heritage 5-25x with a Gen2 XR reticle. The scope is only offered as FFP.

300 yards, 3"x6" plate:
25x.JPG


1125 yards, IPSC target:
IMG_4168.JPG

You can easily put those crosshairs in the middle of the 6" head and see white in all four quadrants.

This scope loses very little (if anything) to an SPF scope in long range deliberate shooting. I've shot 900 and 1000 yards with people who are mostly shooting SFP and I have never been at a disadvantage.

That is the style of crosshair you want to take full advantage of FFP. It allows to do combined wind and elevation holds using the reticle. This is what makes FFP a superior system for fast moving/urban situations like they faced in Iraq. It is also SUPERIOR for hunting for the same reason. The reason is that your crosshair hashes match your turrets and are true at any magnification. Just estimate the range or have a spotter laser the targets and relay the distance and you can engage them far more quickly than SPF without worrying what magnification the scope is set at. Easy to do if you know your dope. Run a snap shoot: 5 second exposures, random distances (lets say 100-600 yards and anywhere in between, not the single caned distance we do in DCRA precision matches), equally skilled shooters with each kind of scope. The the guy with SFP will get destroyed unless he sets his scope to the magic magnification and knows his dope in the units the reticle is in (why mildots with MOA turrets is retarded). That's what real life field use looks like, your target isn't always going to just sit there and wait for you to change magnification, make scope adjustments or do math in your head. Seconds count! Unfortunately, we can't run that kind of stage at most ranges, which is why people don't appreciate this. Most people's view of precision shooting is deliberate F-class style matches or matches at a fixed, caned distance.

Crosshair too hard to see at low magnification? That is why you always get illumination with an FFP scope. Just leave it on out in the field. On a good scope, the battery will last for weeks. I tested this on my Premier with a battery that wasn't even fresh and it lasted nearly two months being left on continuously. And I bought the battery at the dollar store.

The other advantage is that if you miss and see the bullet splash or hole, you just measure the miss with the crosshairs and correct directly on the turrets. No estimating the size of the miss and trying to figure out how many inches/MOA/whatever you need to correct. You see people zeroing an FFP scope trying to figure out what the correction is the way out would with SPF when all they have to do is measure it with the reticle and correct. None of this walking the bullet onto the target crap, two shots and you're zeroed. Doesn't matter what the distance is or what magnification the scope is at, a mil (or MOA) is always a mil (or MOA) in the reticle, and you just plug that into the turret without having to calculate anything.

Most people have no idea how to take full advantage of FFP, or even the basics of how it is used. Many of the scope makers don't fully understand it's full use, which is evident by the type of reticles they offer. If you ask about FFP and you get an answer that focuses on ranging or having to think about centimeters, the person you're speaking with doesn't understand FFP or how to use it to it's full potential.
 
The only application that I would ever use and SFP scope it is for deliberate target shooting at fixed known distances, on a rifle that is used for nothing else. In any other application, SPF loses to FFP provided the FFP scope has the right features and the shooter understand how to use them.
 
Well done kombayotch ! Without the pics, this would have turned into just another CGN shout down.

The world's top brands didn't get into building pricier 1FP formats because it resulted in an inferior product. Laser cut reticles helped make the format even better.
 
IORFFP2x10x42riflescope9-8-2011.jpg


I got this IOR 2x10x42 tactical scope in FFP used off the SH forum.
The guy sent it to me before I sent him payment. He was anxious to unload it at $650.

A guy might be able to see that reticule on 2X on a white paper target.
A guy might even be able to make out those tiny ant legs for hatch marks on a white paper target.

But I can't imagine being able to see the reticule on 2X with a green forest background and an elk running in the foreground. And that is why the guy was selling it.

IORSFP2x10x42riflescope9-8-2011.jpg


Since then I got another used IOR 2x10x42 tactical scope of SH, this one came with IOR rings, illuminated reticule and SFP for $600, and the guy delivered it to my door.


The Second focal plane reticule is always visible, and so could be used for hunting. It is, by far, my favorite of the two scopes.
 
The only time I ever need to crank the magnification all the way down is at close distances where the hash marks aren't needed. The illumination make the crosshairs visible against any background, even at the lowest magnification..

On a deer at 180 yards, magnification at about 10x:

IMG_3736.JPG
 
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