First Time Reloading - First Time Grouping - First Time Everything

45C said:
Ditch those spire points !
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Nothing wrong with Hornady products, time for someone else to have a Snickers. I like these posts - new shooter, new rifle and scope, and new to reloading. Its hard to know where to begin...

The suggestion to try some factory ammo has merit. Making sure all the various fasteners are tight has merit. Shooting off sandbags has merit. Letting the barrel cool between shots has merit. Letting someone else shoot the gun has merit. This will let you know if the gun/scope/operator is the problem. Having jumped through these hoops, one can address the reloading aspect.

1) Rifles tend to tune to a particular bullet weight, try a few different ones. This has little to do with barrel twist, rather its barrel harmonics. A good bullet tends to show promise "right out of the gate".
2) Many rifles prefer flat base bullets over boat tails ( even match grade boat tails)
3) Pick a powder that is speed appropriate. (3031 is too fast for 100 gr bullets, as per Ganderites post)
4) Strive to achieve consistency from round to round, and keep detailed notes.

Try to have fun at this, it often takes some patience to sort out a new gun.
 
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cosmic said:
Nothing wrong with Hornady products, time for someone else to have a Snickers. I like these posts - new shooter, new rifle and scope, and new to reloading. Its hard to know where to begin...

The suggestion to try some factory ammo has merit. Making sure all the various fasteners are tight has merit. Shooting off sandbags has merit. Letting the barrel cool between shots has merit. Letting someone else shoot the gun has merit. This will let you know if the gun/scope/operator is the problem. Having jumped through these hoops, one can address the reloading aspect.

1) Rifles tend to tune to a particular bullet weight, try a few different ones. This has little to do with barrel twist, rather its barrel harmonics. A good bullet tends to show promise "right out of the gate".
2) Many rifles prefer flat base bullets over boat tails ( even match grade boat tails)
3) Pick a powder that is speed appropriate. (3031 is too fast for 100 gr bullets, as per Ganderites post)
4) Strive to achieve consistency from round to round, and keep detailed notes.

Try to have fun at this, it often takes some patience to sort out a new gun.
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Uh, I never said I was a new shooter.
I am new to "grouping" / accuracy testing.
Definitely new to reloading

According to Google there may be something wrong with those hornady spire points in some guns. This is why I was stressing about barrel twist and bullet weight. What you are saying about barrel harmonics is so far beyond my knowledge level. On a few forums now through my search guys are saying they get far better accuracy out of lighter 85-95gr bullet in a 1:10 barrel twist, which others have had similar experiences to (it probably doesn't explain why my garbage groups at sub 100yds exist, but it is something I will pursue)


I have shot far better groups, unsupported with my 4570.

That is why I am here (and why I figured I'd try IMR3031)
I absolutely found a listed load for it, so I figured, heck if it's so good in my guide gun, why not my new bolt.

Thank you for the advice and I am absolutely having fun. Mostly I just had a heart attack thinking maybe I bought 200 projectiles that may not like my barrel, it was all they had at the time though.

My last batch is done, I laddered from in 0.5gr intervals and zeroed my scale to the casing for each powder charge, if it didn't come out exactly like the others I dumped and restarted, I also made doubles of some charges with the bullet seated right on the lands to see if that effects the groups.
 
45C said:
Have a Snickers and reread my post
I only told him what the book suggests.
And he said his COL was 2.700 ,so I suggested 2.680,
Which is 20 thous off the lands.

I know the book is for reference but I'm assuming the data is there for a reason.
And as this is a new reloader, he should take his time and proceed slowly.
Or do you think its OK for a new reloaded to start at 1/2 g above manufacturers max load?

I guess he could work down? Lol
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I suggested "You should start at 39 or 40 and work up."
 
DougPeach said:
And thank you both for your information and time
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No worries Doug
It's a learn as you go thing.
I've personally had great success with Nosler ballistic tips.

I just picked up a couple hundred Berger VLD to try.
Also going to try some new Vithatori powder.
 
OP - If you are going to try some new bullets, I suggest you try a flat based bullet. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Hornady bullets in general, I have been using them for years. I have found them to outshoot Sierra, Nosler, Speer and other brands in various calibers. However, I shoot the flat based Hornady's, as I found that hunting grade boat tails (of any make) were inferior. I have tried match grade boat tails ($$) - they shot OK, but they dont really suit my purpose for hunting rifles shooting out to 200 y max. My guess is that it is easier to manufacture a well-dimensioned flat based bullet than a boat tail.
BTW - You are in Petawawa, it might be an idea to tap in to some local expertise to mentor you through some of these "early days" reloading efforts. The internet is a poor substitute for hands-on support.
 
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Just going to toss this on the pile as I have reloaded and shot a 243 in various forms for 40 years. I have found that 38 or so grains(give or take 1/2 grn) of 4350, 4895, 8208, varget under a 70 grn Nosler will shoot out of any rifle I have had. 12 or so over the years. Use this in correct proportions to your desired bullet weight and it may work in your favour. I am shooting a REm 742 at the moment that came to me as close to new as a early 80's gun can be and have it shooting 1 inch at 100yds and shoots 2"high or low to 250. Juwst adding to the confusion. LOL
 
45C said:
No worries Doug
It's a learn as you go thing.
I've personally had great success with Nosler ballistic tips.

I just picked up a couple hundred Berger VLD to try.
Also going to try some new Vithatori powder.
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I have heard alot of people have good experience with nosler balistic tips and berger VLD,

OP - If you are going to try some new bullets, I suggest you try a flat based bullet. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Hornady bullets in general, I have been using them for years. I have found them to outshoot Sierra, Nosler, Speer and other brands in various calibers. However, I shoot the flat based Hornady's, as I found that hunting grade boat tails (of any make) were inferior. I have tried match grade boat tails ($$) - they shot OK, but they dont really suit my purpose for hunting rifles shooting out to 200 y max. My guess is that it is easier to manufacture a well-dimensioned flat based bullet than a boat tail.
BTW - You are in Petawawa, it might be an idea to tap in to some local expertise to mentor you through some of these "early days" reloading efforts. The internet is a poor substitute for hands-on support.
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The flat based hornadys appear to be discontinued, from my research anyways.

What type of rifle do you own?

As for being in Pet, absolutely I'm sure there is a wealth of knowledge around here, but due to Coronavirus protocols I am unable to tap into it for awhile.

Just going to toss this on the pile as I have reloaded and shot a 243 in various forms for 40 years. I have found that 38 or so grains(give or take 1/2 grn) of 4350, 4895, 8208, varget under a 70 grn Nosler will shoot out of any rifle I have had. 12 or so over the years. Use this in correct proportions to your desired bullet weight and it may work in your favour. I am shooting a REm 742 at the moment that came to me as close to new as a early 80's gun can be and have it shooting 1 inch at 100yds and shoots 2"high or low to 250. Juwst adding to the confusion. LOL
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That makes sense, you didn't confuse me. Thanks for your input, I will keep that in mind
 
UPDATE

I had an opportunity to go out today for 2 hours

My Svbony scope was kinda crooked so I figured I'd fix it and get on paper at 25 and then take it out to 50.

I basically wasted my 42gr and my 39.5gr loads doing that as after repositioning the scope it took me awhile to figure out where my point of impact was without a spotting scope so.. That was a blast. Got to the center of the paper
And doubled the distance.

I only had access to 50yds measured this time but I figured a few rounds down range is still a fun morning.

There was no discernable wind and the temp was - 18°C

My 42gr loads were a little spread out, and to the right of the bullseye... In almost a straight line moving further from the center of the target.. on elevation wise but moving further right from the the bullseye in. 5" increments despite maintaining the same point of aim, steady breathing, good trigger pull and a nice front rest. I was frustrated but figured I'd start with the 41gr next.

What...the...
My first shot is 0.1" from the bullseye.
My second is a little higher and 0.3" away
My fourth? 1.6" right and inline elevation with my 1st shot...
(Ok the guys I came with are packing up to go. Let's pick it up.
I fired my 4th and 5th shots in the amount of time took me to chamber and then light jog 50m in the snow to mark and check my impacts.)
#4 hit 0.1" high and left of the bullseye and
#5 hit 0.93" high and right of the bullseye

The farthest distance between 3 and 4 is 1.59"
Excluding shot number 3 the farthest distance is 0.7" between shots 4 and 5.

This is much much better.
 
Glad you had better luck this time out... Svbony scope? Had to look that one up. In the long term, you might consider getting a better scope. The pattern you describe with the 42 gr loads could be the scope "walking". Scopes generally dont like to be adjusted in the cold, even high end scopes.
Finally, as other folks have pointed out, for a new load (and a new rifle to boot) you should start at minimum load and work your way up. This is one of the fundamental rules of reloading.Choosing not to follow it can give rise to a Darwin award.
 
DougPeach said:
UPDATE

I had an opportunity to go out today for 2 hours

My Svbony scope was kinda crooked so I figured I'd fix it and get on paper at 25 and then take it out to 50.

I basically wasted my 42gr and my 39.5gr loads doing that as after repositioning the scope it took me awhile to figure out where my point of impact was without a spotting scope so.. That was a blast. Got to the center of the paper
And doubled the distance.

I only had access to 50yds measured this time but I figured a few rounds down range is still a fun morning.

There was no discernable wind and the temp was - 18°C

My 42gr loads were a little spread out, and to the right of the bullseye... In almost a straight line moving further from the center of the target.. on elevation wise but moving further right from the the bullseye in. 5" increments despite maintaining the same point of aim, steady breathing, good trigger pull and a nice front rest. I was frustrated but figured I'd start with the 41gr next.

What...the...
My first shot is 0.1" from the bullseye.
My second is a little higher and 0.3" away
My fourth? 1.6" right and inline elevation with my 1st shot...
(Ok the guys I came with are packing up to go. Let's pick it up.
I fired my 4th and 5th shots in the amount of time took me to chamber and then light jog 50m in the snow to mark and check my impacts.)
#4 hit 0.1" high and left of the bullseye and
#5 hit 0.93" high and right of the bullseye

The farthest distance between 3 and 4 is 1.59"
Excluding shot number 3 the farthest distance is 0.7" between shots 4 and 5.

This is much much better.
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Hey Doug, are you saying that your group was 1.59 inches at 50 yards? Or bigger?
 
45C said:
Hey Doug, are you saying that your group was 1.59 inches at 50 yards? Or bigger?
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1.59" with the 3rd round included, which I honestly feel like was weird flyer I accidently wrote fourth when I meant third.

Without the "flyer" .7" but like, actually looks like a group. This is what I was expecting to see when I took it out the first time.
When I am measuring I measure the distance between the farthest two apart rounds,

Shots 1,2 and 4 are literally a 1/12th of an inch apart.
 
Is this normal?
I put my rifle in a woodworking vice and set the reticle on the center of a target across the room from me (about 25 ft)
I then slowly rotated the magnification up as I looked through the rifle scope...

as I increase in mag my reticle moves down and to the left, as I zoom back out of mag it returns to where it was originally aimed.

this is not replicated on my 4570 with a vortex.
 
I bought a Zastava M70 in 6.5X55. Long story short; bedding was the sh!ts. After I lamp-blacked the action & barrel, I was able to trim excess wood & groups tightened up enormously. Check your bedding.
 
DougPeach said:
Is this normal?
I put my rifle in a woodworking vice and set the reticle on the center of a target across the room from me (about 25 ft)
I then slowly rotated the magnification up as I looked through the rifle scope...

as I increase in mag my reticle moves down and to the left, as I zoom back out of mag it returns to where it was originally aimed.

this is not replicated on my 4570 with a vortex.
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No, this is not a desired feature in a scope. I think its fair to say that the Svbony scope is marginal for the intended purpose of target shooting. Here's a crazy idea - swap it out for your Vortex and see what happens to your groups. Bad scopes can cost a lot of money via wasted shots at the range.
 
But but but... Yes, you're right. I think when the tax return comes in I'll just buy another of the same scope and throw it on.

I was just hoping not to rezero my 45-70 when I invest in something more suitable for the zastava
 
Leave the 45/70 alone!! Wait till you can buy another scope.
I have 6 different 180 grain bullet brands and bullet types before I found the bullet my 300wm likes. So it does take some experimenting.
Set your scope to one power and leave it there. Remove one less mystery in the equation.
Clean the copper out of your barrel with CR10 or an equivalent copper remover. Stop cleaning when the blue stops coming out, relube the barrel. Shoot a couple of fowling rounds and then shoot for groups. I'll look up my recipe when the rest of the family wakes up..
40.5 grains of RL22, 2.63 OAL, 100gr Nosler partition spitzer. .204 and .271 3 shot groups @ 100.
 
Ok here's an idea;

Set the scope to a power and leave it there.
Make sure the rings are snug. If you don't have good rings and mounts get some - the problem could be your scope is moving shot to shot.
I had that happen once with cheap rings - I could not figure out why the scope would not hold zero from one range trip to the next- finally narrowed it down to the rings - never bought cheap rings since.

Do not worry if your group is not close to the point of aim. What you are looking for is a "group". Once you get the load that "groups" you can fix the point of aim.

Look at my target in post 30 - you can see i was shooting low and left all the time - so what? I'm looking for the "group"
You should be too.

Also, keep your targets and put some data on them so you know where you were and where you are going....

Here's a tip to zero a bolt gun without much ammo...
Wait until dark, take the bolt out, (of your unloaded rifle...lol) sandbag the rifle on the kitchen table, look through the barrel at your neighbours porch light or your barn light or whatever.
With the rifle sandbagged, adjust the scope so the cross hair is on the light. Make sure you can still see the light looking down the barrel.

When you get to the range you will be on the paper for sure, should not take much to get to zero

Post some pictures of your targets please
 
UPDATE.

I got back to the 75yds I can shoot at.

I have replaced my scope with a vortex Crossfire II and the rings with vortex pro rings.

I tried something new today.

I did
87gr hornady SPs with 42gr IMR 4831 PINK
100gr Hornady Interlock with 42gr IMR 4831 YELLOW
87gr Hornady with 36gr IMR 3031 BLACK
85gr Sierra HPBT with 36gr IMR 3031 GREEN ((.53"))
87gr Hornady Sp with 34.8gr IMR 3031 BLUE
85gr Sierra HPBT with 34.8gr IMR 3031 ORANGE

As you can see the scope was not zero'd but for each group I did walk down and inspect the target and watch my groups using the same point of aim.

Wtf is going on? I know one load is getting what I expect out of a rifle like mine and of course the components needed to make it are scarce.

One thing I noticed is my scale is always moving in .2 grain increments. It will never have an odd, ever.

I was shooting from a front bag.

I also shot my buddy's 308 for giggles to see what was going on.. And that group (not pictured) was .75"

The bottom right circle is my 22 unsupported rapid fire... Better groups than some of those loads....

Now there are No Sierra game kings or IMR 3031 to be found anywhere..... Booooooo
 
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