First time reloading - not enough room in the case?

koesdibyo

koesdibyo

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I am attempting my first reloads ever for the .308 win and having some issues now.

These will be shot from my Savage 10TR this weekend and I am using Hornady 180 grain SP and IMR 4064.

Using Hodgdons reloading data site, and it has supplied me with 40.7 starting up to a 45.2 maximum using an OAL of 2.750

Plan to go up in increments of 0.5, and have 10 rounds of each to test out.

I was able to get up to 42.2 before issues with space in the case filled by the powder are preventing the bullet from seating to to the 2.750 OAL

I am sitting at 2.760 OAL with the 42.2g of powder in the case; well shy of the 45.2 maximum. Should I extend the OAL? Will the powder being completely filled right up in the casing cause any issues?
 
I'm no expert... But I don't think the cook book would tell you to fill it with enough powder to overflow.

Recheck your powder measure, weigh them over and over.... Make sure you are using the right powder... Etc.
 
Its not quite overflowing, but in order to get down to the proper OAL with the bullet, I will need to compress what is in the case currently by .01 or leave it at 2.760

I have some hornady 165 spire point interlocks to compare the 180 SPs to, and the spires are slightly shorter 0.07" shorter to be exact (SP=1.22", spire=1.15")

So my first thought is perhaps the bullet choice is playing a factor... and I have read a lot of people using 2.800" as the OAL for the .308

That being said though, I was trying to go by the book as per what Hodgdons was recommending.

I am testing every 2nd throw to ensure it is putting out the same amount each time. And have checked, and checked and checked again the powder scale is correctly set (Lee Safety Scale)
 
When you say there isn't enough room do you mean it physically won't fit in the case or do you mean you are compressing the powder when you seat the bullet? If the powder isn't much higher than the neck/shoulder junction don't worry about compressing it a bit.
It is not uncommon that as you compress the powder to have to adjust your bullet seater down a bit more to compensate for flex in the press and such compared to a load that isn't compressed.

I would also determine the actual distance to the lands as opposed to just going with what the book says. Cut a couple slits in the neck of a spare case and bend them in a bit so that it will grip a bullet, place that set up in your chamber and gently close the bolt. Then gently extract that round and measure the length. Do this 5 or more times and find the average. I would then set your seating die up to be .010" shorter than that measurement.
 
My hornady book has a max load of 41.3 grains for IMR4064. Probably conservative like any reloading manual, but that's pretty far off your max.
 
If this is for load development I would weigh every charge personally. Once you have decided on a powder weight than I would go to thrown charges and maybe not weigh every charge.
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
Read that article a couple of times. I think this method of load development is pretty good. Especially if you plan on throwing powder charges and not weighing every charge later on. If this method is done correctly it will produce a load that is very stable and easy to produce. (ie. you don't have to be OCD to the 10th degree)

Plus it will save on components while you are developing a load for your rifle.
 
CanuckR said:
When you say there isn't enough room do you mean it physically won't fit in the case or do you mean you are compressing the powder when you seat the bullet? If the powder isn't much higher than the neck/shoulder junction don't worry about compressing it a bit.
It is not uncommon that as you compress the powder to have to adjust your bullet seater down a bit more to compensate for flex in the press and such compared to a load that isn't compressed.

I would also determine the actual distance to the lands as opposed to just going with what the book says. Cut a couple slits in the neck of a spare case and bend them in a bit so that it will grip a bullet, place that set up in your chamber and gently close the bolt. Then gently extract that round and measure the length. Do this 5 or more times and find the average. I would then set your seating die up to be .010" shorter than that measurement.
Click to expand...

All the powder fits, and fills the casing to the shoulder. I have my seating die set for the 2.750 without hitting resistance from powder in the casing (first few loads of 40.7 didnt quite reach the point where the bullet was touching yet), and I was unsure of if I should tighten it up and force it to 2.750 (without the tightening of the seating die yet, the OAL is 2.760 before it hits the resistance).

Thanks for that tip, I was planning on getting a tool to measure the distance to the lands in the near future, but wanted to get these mixed up for the weekend. Nice and simple way, I shall do that now to be able to properly set it!
 
A couple of things. Firstly, did you notice that the Hodgdon site says 45.2 C ? The C means compressed. Secondly, as far as your OAL is concerned, you could measure your chamber to determine how long you can make the bullets. However, having said that, a longer bullet may not feed from your magazine. In my bolt guns I like to seat the bullet so that it is about 0.010" from the lands. I think a loading manual might come handy. If you are going to use Hornady projectiles, for the most part, then get a Hornady manual. Most reloaders have several manuals. The reason I say that is because the Hornady manual give 34.0 grains to 41.3 grains of IMR 4064 for 180 grain projectile in .308 Winchester.
 
When I was loading for 308 I had a load that shot very well in My Rem cases but that same load would not fit in the batch of federal cases I had, the powder would overflow with a 6" drop tube.
 
Eynhallow said:
A couple of things. Firstly, did you notice that the Hodgdon site says 45.2 C ? The C means compressed. Secondly, as far as your OAL is concerned, you could measure your chamber to determine how long you can make the bullets. However, having said that, a longer bullet may not feed from your magazine. In my bolt guns I like to seat the bullet so that it is about 0.010" from the lands. I think a loading manual might come handy. If you are going to use Hornady projectiles, for the most part, then get a Hornady manual. Most have several manuals. The reason I say that is because the Hornady manual give 34.0 grains to 41.3 grains of IMR 4064 for 180 grain projectile in .308 Winchester.
Click to expand...

Correct at 45.2 "C". I just didnt think the compression should be starting this early (3 grains away from their max).

That is definitely quote a leap in difference between the manual and the online data! Id prefer to go underpowered and build up, hence starting from the bottom, but it appears Hodgdons jumps right in at Hornadys max and continues to go up!

I am using 2 different cases (5 of each load in Winchester, and 5 of each in Remington) as I wasnt sure if casings played a big role in it as well.

Time to test my own rifles OAL acceptance to better check since I now know how simple thanks to CGNers :)
 
I don't fuss over the cases much but if your using a max load for your rifle and switch to a case with a less capacity the pressure will be higher.
 
I have a hornady and 2 lyman reloading manuals plus one from IMR and the max load I can find for a 180 gr. .308 using 4064 is 43.5 gr and that is a compressed load, you will find with experience that a max load is usually not your most accurate load
 
Do you have a bullet puller to salvage unfired rounds?.
You may need it if loading 10 ea. = 80+ rounds for first time out pressure testing. Were it me, there would be three of each increment.
You can read pressure signs with a single shot, but 3 per will show you the charge levels that your rifle wants to group at. There may be 2 or three nodes show up between min. and max.. so you'll know what charge areas to load for further testing next time out.

To get more powder in there, you can use a long (18") drop tube, and tap/vibrate the case to settle the powder.
Some compression on seating is OK with stick powder. When it starts to crunching in the seating die .. thats enough.
Yes you can seat out, it will be the mag length or throat depth that limits COL. Probably throat in a Savage.
You will want to determine just exactly where the lands start, so as to avoid inadvertent hard jam.
The last 308 10tr I played with had a shorter throat that kissed at around 2.975" with 155 Amax if I recall correctly.
What was nice to have was the longer Savage mag length.
That rifle just bugholed with varget ... we're talking .3moa typical for 5 at 100. Incredible.
 
Try to keep the cases separated by manufacturer, but, other than that just reload them according to the load data. The only difference you will notice is that some cases last longer than others. Or may grow a bit faster, and, thus, need trimming.
 
vviking said:
Do you have a bullet puller to salvage unfired rounds?.
You may need it if loading 10 ea. = 80+ rounds for first time out pressure testing. Were it me, there would be three of each increment.
You can read pressure signs with a single shot, but 3 per will show you the charge levels that your rifle wants to group at. There may be 2 or three nodes show up between min. and max.. so you'll know what charge areas to load for further testing next time out.

To get more powder in there, you can use a long (18") drop tube, and tap/vibrate the case to settle the powder.
Some compression on seating is OK with stick powder. When it starts to crunching in the seating die .. thats enough.
Yes you can seat out, it will be the mag length or throat depth that limits COL. Probably throat in a Savage.
You will want to determine just exactly where the lands start, so as to avoid inadvertent hard jam.
The last 308 10tr I played with had a shorter throat that kissed at around 2.975" with 155 Amax if I recall correctly.
What was nice to have was the longer Savage mag length.
That rifle just bugholed with varget ... we're talking .3moa typical for 5 at 100. Incredible.
Click to expand...
No bullet puller, but have only made 31 rounds so far, so not a huge ordeal.

Definitely another suggestion I will be taking, and implementing... save on the loads and figure out which works best. I went with 5 in case of user error (gave me a spare 2 per type of brass extra).

With other people bringing out their manuals information, and all of it matching with each others manuals I will be using my current made rounds as the new max (42.2 with a 0.01 compression to get to 2.750) and starting the baseline at 35 grains, increasing by 0.5

Before proceeding, I am going to try to mark the distance to my rifles lands to adjust the OAL accordingly as well.

Thanks everyone for the huge tips; ive learned A LOT in the last half hour!
 
MaxKW said:
I don't fuss over the cases much but if your using a max load for your rifle and switch to a case with a less capacity the pressure will be higher.
Click to expand...

Quoted for truth.
Way back when I started handloading, worked up a steamy 180gr .308 WW748 ball powder non-compressed load in WW brass. Shot that load alot with no problems. One time a single DA 7.62 mil case inadvertently found its way into the load session. Result?. Broke the bolt handle clean off a Rem 600 with a 2x4, trying to get it open. The case held, but was a mangled blackened mess.
I haven't mixed brass since. They all get the headstamp read at deprime.
 
Haha well then... another lesson in the books for me - keep em sorted! Luckily I just have to 2 types for now; and I did take the time too sort them so I could see if there was any difference when the rounds went down range in them; but seems like a different issue than I expected to come up with them.

Oh well. Working my way down from the 40.2 I started with, and I made it down to 37.7 making 6 (3 of each type of brass) of each increment and will retire for the night and resume tomorrow.

From my readings on attempted the depth of the lands, I came out with 2.800
I decided to stick with the 2.750 for the time being, and upon testing again I will go with 2.790 to see if there is any improvement (will also give me a better feel as I will have brass fired from this rifle to test it with instead of stuff I have currently).

I really appreciate all the input from everyone... glad I came for help rather than push on with the max load of 45.2. Im sure if Hodgdon is saying its safe... it would be, but as a newbie, I am already very freaked out about making a crucial error; so starting on the lower end of the spectrum sounds better to me.
 
Mixing brass is terrible. I've found manufactures can vary beyond 20 grains of weight and almost half a cc of volume. That's a few grains worth if powder capacity. That can be a tremendous pressure variance. You may as well give up now if your going to mix. Vertical dispersion may be huge at ranges beyond 300yards.

I don't shoot competitively what so ever but I sort my brass into +/-1 grain batches. Before I learnt the importance of sorting I was blaming that odd flier in myself. Oddly now that I sort there's almost never a flier and my groups are a fraction the size of previous, very consistent. I know if the group is terrible or there's a flier IM at fault.

Do your self a favor And find your lands now.
 
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