Haha, come on now, I 100% agree with your sentimental pick, as I have my grandmas shotgun she gave me. However every time you go to the safe, you are choosing by feel. Example I feel I need more trigger time on the CZ, or I feel I wanna shoot the Dirty Harry. If you don't choose that way then shooting would be very boring IMHO.
Fit vs Fundamentals
- Thread starter Tongarirohiker
- Start date
Haha, come on now, I 100% agree with your sentimental pick, as I have my grandmas shotgun she gave me. However every time you go to the safe, you are choosing by feel. Example I feel I need more trigger time on the CZ, or I feel I wanna shoot the Dirty Harry. If you don't choose that way then shooting would be very boring IMHO.
I can shoot all my handguns fairly well. Some are easier to shoot than others. I think a light crisp trigger is more important than fit.
When it come to shooting well - quickly, as in a CQB match, I do find that fit matters. I have switched to a M&P because I get better results with it than with my CZ or a 1911.
But good results can only come from good fundamentals. My most uncomfortable handgun is a Glock but I still get excellent groups from it.
Good fundamentals come from good coaching and practicing correctly. A lot of practice shooting poorly makes you good at shooting poorly. It would be like learning to ski or golf without lessons.
When it come to shooting well - quickly, as in a CQB match, I do find that fit matters. I have switched to a M&P because I get better results with it than with my CZ or a 1911.
But good results can only come from good fundamentals. My most uncomfortable handgun is a Glock but I still get excellent groups from it.
Good fundamentals come from good coaching and practicing correctly. A lot of practice shooting poorly makes you good at shooting poorly. It would be like learning to ski or golf without lessons.
Tongarirohiker
CGN Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
So what you're describing is based on my emotional state. That has nothing to do with how the pistol will perform. The constant between all of my pistols, and any pistol I borrow at the range, is my technique. If you had used 'I'm going to shot the CZ because it fits my hand best and the other pistols have minute-of-washtub groups' as an example, then I would be choosing a pistol on fit. My personal goals are to shoot every pistol in my posession as well as I can. I want to know that if I feel like shooting the wheelgun today and the CZ tomorrow that I'll get the same results. I don't have fun spraying random holes in a target. I have fun trying my best to tighten up my groups.
Your example doesn't quite equate to what people have been calling 'fit'. Then again, I'm not sure what 'fit' is supposed to define. I feel this has been missing from the fit side. A definition.
'Fit' is subjective. 'Fit' can change from day to day, it can be based on my experiences and knowledge to date. 'Fit' can constantly change. 'Fit' is often tied to some sort of emotion. There is no consistency to how 'fit' can be described, so it's something that is easy for us fundamentalists to pick on it.
Fundamentals are tangible. Proper sight picture. Proper press of the trigger. They are what I will apply to each pistol every time, and I'll likely get the same results from each pistol.
In my first magazine with my glock I was shooting fairly well. If I moved quickly into my second mag my shooting degraded. With my HK this was not the case, I was consistent in both mags. I realized it was the way I had to change my grip on the glock to press the mag release. My HK P30 uses a more ergonomic design with the mag release on the trigger guard. So in this case the fit was affecting my fundamentals. There's no doubt that I should have been reseting my grip, but the fit of the gun is what necessitates that in the first place.
I love my glock but its fit is crude.
I love my glock but its fit is crude.
If you can't shoot, all the fit in the world won't fix it - neither will an expensive, super accurate pistol - instruction and practice will. If you can shoot, fit isn't the "one true thing" that'll make you into a champion shooter - but it certainly won't hurt.
It almost sounds like some of you are suggesting a person buying their first gun should walk into a gun store and say "ive got $800... throw anything down on the table thats $800 or less and ill take it". Im not saying this IS what your suggesting... but it definitely sounds that way.
If your going to buy a gun, why would you NOT buy one that FEELS good in your hands (good point about the definition of "fit"... what does it mean exactly?). If someone GIVES you a gun... or lets say, when the zombies come and your picking up guns off dead bodies, you better have the fundamentals down because you WILL be shooting any random old gun. (sic). But in the real world you DO have a choice. Weather your FOCUSING on fit or fundamentals you SHOULD be buying a gun that feels good.
The similes for this argument are endless. Cars... a non-necessity for some, tool for some and competition device for others. Should the person who wants to become a better driver ignore how the car feels to sit in and how you feel driving it? Afterall, how the car feels doesnt make you a safer driver or faster on a track... or does it? If your buying it as a tool your going to pay attention to its function and how it performs the job you have in mind. Fit and fundamentals may not mean anything to you. If your buying it to race, it better fit and feel perfect AND your fundamentals better be spot on. To take this one step further, a pro driver CAN drive a crappy car faster than an amateur driver... but an amateur driver may struggle with a pro race car for all the same reasons the pro driver loves it.
I dont think I answered any questions... but more food for thought.
If your going to buy a gun, why would you NOT buy one that FEELS good in your hands (good point about the definition of "fit"... what does it mean exactly?). If someone GIVES you a gun... or lets say, when the zombies come and your picking up guns off dead bodies, you better have the fundamentals down because you WILL be shooting any random old gun. (sic). But in the real world you DO have a choice. Weather your FOCUSING on fit or fundamentals you SHOULD be buying a gun that feels good.
The similes for this argument are endless. Cars... a non-necessity for some, tool for some and competition device for others. Should the person who wants to become a better driver ignore how the car feels to sit in and how you feel driving it? Afterall, how the car feels doesnt make you a safer driver or faster on a track... or does it? If your buying it as a tool your going to pay attention to its function and how it performs the job you have in mind. Fit and fundamentals may not mean anything to you. If your buying it to race, it better fit and feel perfect AND your fundamentals better be spot on. To take this one step further, a pro driver CAN drive a crappy car faster than an amateur driver... but an amateur driver may struggle with a pro race car for all the same reasons the pro driver loves it.
I dont think I answered any questions... but more food for thought.
Shanks4300
Regular
- Location
- Winnipeg, mb
Fundamentals for sure; that being said, if you can't physically reach the trigger due to the grip diameter or manipulate the controls due to their placement then fit/ ergonomics is important. I agree that "fitting" a pistol or a set of golf clubs around a flawed technique is ill advised; a trap I fell into in the golf world but have since rectified.
Understanding what makes for good technique will allow you to understand which pistols "fit" you.
By the way, I won't consider this thread to have run it's course until TDC chimes in and tells us we all suck for even debating that it could be anything but fundamentals. lol
Understanding what makes for good technique will allow you to understand which pistols "fit" you.
By the way, I won't consider this thread to have run it's course until TDC chimes in and tells us we all suck for even debating that it could be anything but fundamentals. lol
"...'fit', as far as pistol shooting, means very little..." Nope. If a handgun doesn't fit your hand, you won't be able to reach the trigger properly. That means you'll never be able to shoot that handgun well enough for the fundamentals or technique to matter.
Tongarirohiker
CGN Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
We likely won't ever come to any conclusions. I'm glad for the debate and I wanted to bring out the discussion formally as I'm sure it will come up the next time someone asks about their first pistol, or wants to know how to improve their minute-of-washtub groups (TDC, MOW has become part of my lexicon now...thanks).
I think that first pistol threads focus too much on fit. That's completely subjective. What's important information for the first time buyer if how easy it is to come by spare parts. Is there a history of guide rods snapping? Should you be looking for gen 1 or gen 2? The last thing I want to do now is tell someone that they should buy a CZ cause it 'fits my hand perfectly'.
The way the pistol feels in your hand can certainly be part of the buying process. Let's just not make the first time pistol buyer think that they have to look for something magical when buying their first pistol. It's not like Harry Potter where you grab that one wand that fits you and sparks shoot out. I've been at the gun counters a few times and have watched a number of people pick up a pistol, gripping it, pointing it, hefting it, trying to find that magical thing that will make this perfect. They'll eventually settle on something, but it won't be the thing that gets them to shoot like Rob Leatham.
Now, if we're really going to buy pistols based on fit, we need to formalize what fit means. When I go to buy a suit, I get measured. When I buy shoes, I get measured. If I wanted clubs fit to my swing and game, I'd see a professional club fitter. I'm assuming everybody who has mentioned fit hasn't talked to someone asking how to buy a pistol that fits their hand. They just hefted it, looked down the slide a few times, and either said yay or nay.
Is this the future? Should I be able to walk into Cabelas and look for the guy with a pair of calipers and a measuring tape who will then present a selection of guns based on my hand shape? Actually, if that came with a comfortable chair and a complimentary drink, I'd take that service all day.
I think that first pistol threads focus too much on fit. That's completely subjective. What's important information for the first time buyer if how easy it is to come by spare parts. Is there a history of guide rods snapping? Should you be looking for gen 1 or gen 2? The last thing I want to do now is tell someone that they should buy a CZ cause it 'fits my hand perfectly'.
The way the pistol feels in your hand can certainly be part of the buying process. Let's just not make the first time pistol buyer think that they have to look for something magical when buying their first pistol. It's not like Harry Potter where you grab that one wand that fits you and sparks shoot out. I've been at the gun counters a few times and have watched a number of people pick up a pistol, gripping it, pointing it, hefting it, trying to find that magical thing that will make this perfect. They'll eventually settle on something, but it won't be the thing that gets them to shoot like Rob Leatham.
Now, if we're really going to buy pistols based on fit, we need to formalize what fit means. When I go to buy a suit, I get measured. When I buy shoes, I get measured. If I wanted clubs fit to my swing and game, I'd see a professional club fitter. I'm assuming everybody who has mentioned fit hasn't talked to someone asking how to buy a pistol that fits their hand. They just hefted it, looked down the slide a few times, and either said yay or nay.
Is this the future? Should I be able to walk into Cabelas and look for the guy with a pair of calipers and a measuring tape who will then present a selection of guns based on my hand shape? Actually, if that came with a comfortable chair and a complimentary drink, I'd take that service all day.
Because (for most people) it's not always just how a handgun feels that's important, but also how accurately they can shoot it, and accuracy is not 100% correlated with shooting comfort. I can shoot Glocks and USPs quite accurately (for me at least), but I find they are not as comfortable to hold and shoot as other handguns.
As I mentioned upthread, there's nothing at all wrong with getting a gun that feels just right in your hand if you're looking for the enjoyment of handgun shooting (and I've got a bunch that fit that category). But, if you're looking to compete or just shoot as accurately as you can for fun, it's how accurate you can shoot a gun that matters to the exclusion of anything else (except, I guess, reliability, but most modern handguns are very reliable) as long as the shooter can manipulate the controls correctly.
Fit, or ergonomics, isn't really so much about comfort. It's more about such things as trigger reach, grip angle, grip contact (how much of it actually interfaces with the hand), bore axis, pressure points, sights, etc. These are all ergonomic human-machine interface issues that can directly affect performance.
Interestingly, some of the most "comfortable" guns I've ever held turned out to be not really suitable for my needs, performance-wise.
Note that great ergonomics do not a great shooter make. However, a great shooter can use great ergonomics to maximum effect, and crappy ergonomics can hinder performance and derail learning.
Actually, I think correct ergonomics would be a more accurate term. I'll use that from now on.
Interestingly, some of the most "comfortable" guns I've ever held turned out to be not really suitable for my needs, performance-wise.
Note that great ergonomics do not a great shooter make. However, a great shooter can use great ergonomics to maximum effect, and crappy ergonomics can hinder performance and derail learning.
Actually, I think correct ergonomics would be a more accurate term. I'll use that from now on.
I bought some of those Can Am 1911s. I wa surprised at how short the trigger was and how uncomfortable it was to shoot. It tended to make me shoot low left. A lot.
I installed the "Long" trigger in them and now they are comfortable and shoot to POA.
Other guns do not offer $15 choices of trigger length, so the buyer should make sure his hand and finger reach the trigger the right way. This is a "fit" issue.
I installed the "Long" trigger in them and now they are comfortable and shoot to POA.
Other guns do not offer $15 choices of trigger length, so the buyer should make sure his hand and finger reach the trigger the right way. This is a "fit" issue.
How could you know how accurate you shoot it if you havent bought it yet. Not everyone can try every guy before they buy. Sometimes all you get is the chance to hold it.
If that's the case then you're kind of SOL. Pinch a dew rounds from other range members if possible is the only solution I can think of that won't cost a fortune in time and money. That being said, if all you get is a hands on at the counter, I would focus on design and control layout as a more heavily weighted factor in the decision. Behind that I would look at support. How easy are spare parts, magazines, holsters, etc to obtain?
TDC
well, with trigger reach, grip angle, grip contact, bore axis, fitting well in your hand ...., for me I see it as a ''right fit'' or ''ergonomics fit'' with comfort, different with only ''grip comfort''.
did you focused on the grip comfort ? Edit : you did focus only on ''grip comfort''...
agree with you I am
it is very interesting to see how much each different opinion is from eacheveryone shooter, it is different from one shooter to another on where they are in their personal evolution in shooting handguns (me included), so I see it as the ''fit vs fundamentals'' falls with everyone's personal's evolution, we all evoluate and make different choice....., Learning process....
the same way we see ''Glock People'' only focus on Glock saying that if it's not a Glock it's not worthed and it's not reliable and it's not accurate....well......personal evolution....they are not there yet .... lolll.....well, so much for showing their openning mind ......hmmmm their Learning process is stagning.....hoooo bad tazik....
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That's certainly a good way. You are collecting the right answers as You go.
Right answers for You.
Your very own, personal experience in the long run is invaluable.
Everyone is different and unfortunately many of us here simply can't see past our own little prejudices.
We love to fight our, own little wars. It's the internet after all.
Take most of what You are reading here with a grain of salt.
Good luck and have fun making your own discoveries!
