FITASC Pins and Sew on Patch

If I do join, what good is it to me if I don't travel internationally?
I'll join anything that will advance the sport.

Well, you obviously travel to the USA to shoot, so you could travel to Western Canada to participate in some of those events. This past weekend there were registered shoots in MB, SK, AB and BC. Granted they are not the size of those in the US but it is growing. What CNSCA needs is more support from Ontario. With your background, why don't you get clubs in Ontario on board throwing CNSCA events. Getting shooters and clubs in our largest province involved would do a lot for CNSCA.

You might consider treating yourself to a well earned holiday and attend Bugaboo Blast in SE BC August 26-28, then enjoy a drive thru the mountains to Grande Prairie, AB for the Canadian Nationals commencing Sep 1. I expect that Nationals will have at least 120 shooters so not bad for a relatively young organization.
 
CNSCA offers a lot to Albertan shooters because there are lots of different shooting venues.

We need to dispel this notion that CNSCA is an Alberta organization. In terms of clubs throwing CNSCA targets, I think there are as many or more in BC than in AB.
 
salter said:
CNSCA offers a lot to Albertan shooters because there are lots of different shooting venues.

We need to dispel this notion that CNSCA is an Alberta organization. In terms of clubs throwing CNSCA targets, I think there are as many or more in BC than in AB.
Click to expand...

The last time I looked, the principals in both organizations were the same people, so it certainly gave that impression..
I'll take another look.

I shot the Stampede 400 a few years back after riding the Rocky Mountaineer from Vancouver to Jasper, then travelling to Calgary via Lake Louise and Banff. The Fairmount experience they called it. Great trip.
 
The CNSCA is hardly an organization representing Canada, BC, AB, and SK do not a country make.

It's all political B/S, but my big gripe is the classification system; the classification system does nothing to support competition. You can shoot at 1 club with soft targets and hit Master Class in your first shoot. If you only shot in Lethbridge you would never make it out of C class. This is a competitive game, and yet the classification is in no way reflective of it. This is how the CNSCA pissed off Ontario to start with.

Oh, and the odd little rule that the NSCA won't let the target setting shoot in competition, something about unfair advantage that the CNSCA doesn't take issue with.

As for the NSCA not spending any money in Canada; the target fees are the same an NSCA vs CNSCA shoot, but the NSCA gives out cash prizes and the CNSCA is volunteer. Exactly what does the CNSCA do for average Joe shooter again?
 
Sapper33 said:
The CNSCA is hardly an organization representing Canada, BC, AB, and SK do not a country make.

It's all political B/S, but my big gripe is the classification system; the classification system does nothing to support competition. You can shoot at 1 club with soft targets and hit Master Class in your first shoot. If you only shot in Lethbridge you would never make it out of C class. This is a competitive game, and yet the classification is in no way reflective of it. This is how the CNSCA pissed off Ontario to start with.

Oh, and the odd little rule that the NSCA won't let the target setting shoot in competition, something about unfair advantage that the CNSCA doesn't take issue with.

As for the NSCA not spending any money in Canada; the target fees are the same an NSCA vs CNSCA shoot, but the NSCA gives out cash prizes and the CNSCA is volunteer. Exactly what does the CNSCA do for average Joe shooter again?
Click to expand...

The classification system could be easily fixed.

Unlike skeet and trap, sporting clays courses can be quite wide and varied. In order to level that playing field, the HOA score becomes 100, so an HOA score of 95 becomes the denominator for my score of 75. If I multiply my score of 75 by 100, then divide by 95 , my adjusted score becomes 78.9, or 79 rounded to single digits.

In another course, if I still shoot 75 and the HOA is 86, my adjusted score is 82. With an HOA of 86, it suggests that the second shoot was harder than the first, but when adjusted, we are all on the same level playing field.

If we use skeet as an example for averages, everyone will be compared to a similar average and we could eliminate the punch system and the problem with not enough shooters in a class to earn a punch.

I used to think that target setters shouldn't be able to compete for prizes, but after setting the 5 stand at our club for almost 10 years, I don't think I have an advantage because I am more familiar with the targets. On the other hand, true pairs are often a competition between the target setter and the shooter, so the setter may have a slight advantage, because he knows what he's trying to do to the shooter. The only time this might be an advantage is when the setter, as a shooter, is first in the box, otherwise a good shooter ought to be able to figure that out by viewing the show pair and at least one other shooter, so I'm a bit conflicted on that one.

I did notice that CNSCA and Alberta Sporting Clays share a web site, so the impression that they are one and the same is somewhat reinforced.

Here's what Google says about it.

CNSCA News & Info
www.cnsca.ca/
The official website of the Alberta Shooting Clays and Canadian National Shooting Clays Association. Sporting Clays Canada NSCA CNSCA trap skeet.

I rest my case
 
Damned we'd lose everyone shooting ATA here in SK if target setters couldn't compete or get classified. Attend enough shoots and eventually you will notice everybody participating is helping out. When I was trap director at my old home club I used to set all the targets for every shoot we held including helping the skeet director set targets for NSSA shoots.
 
Sapper33 said:
Oh, and the odd little rule that the NSCA won't let the target setting shoot in competition, something about unfair advantage that the CNSCA doesn't take issue with.
Click to expand...
It's a very important rule. If I set the targets I've probably shot them or at least know the tricks and will kick the ass of most shooters even those of far greater ability.

As for the NSCA not spending any money in Canada; the target fees are the same an NSCA vs CNSCA shoot, but the NSCA gives out cash prizes and the CNSCA is volunteer. Exactly what does the CNSCA do for average Joe shooter again?
Click to expand...
From what I've seen in this thread the CNSCA's main accomplishment for Canadian shooters is DQing you from any FITASC event in the world unless you are a member.
 
I did notice that CNSCA and Alberta Sporting Clays share a web site, so the impression that they are one and the same is somewhat reinforced.


I think it was 2013 when CNSCA launched its own web site, separate from ASCA. Time to hit the refresh button on your browser.
 
Sapper33 said:
The CNSCA is hardly an organization representing Canada, BC, AB, and SK do not a country make.

It's all political B/S, but my big gripe is the classification system; the classification system does nothing to support competition. You can shoot at 1 club with soft targets and hit Master Class in your first shoot. If you only shot in Lethbridge you would never make it out of C class. This is a competitive game, and yet the classification is in no way reflective of it. This is how the CNSCA pissed off Ontario to start with.

Oh, and the odd little rule that the NSCA won't let the target setting shoot in competition, something about unfair advantage that the CNSCA doesn't take issue with.

As for the NSCA not spending any money in Canada; the target fees are the same an NSCA vs CNSCA shoot, but the NSCA gives out cash prizes and the CNSCA is volunteer. Exactly what does the CNSCA do for average Joe shooter again?
Click to expand...

Re: classification system - you are wrong. Simple as that. You cannot make it to Master class from one shoot - or two - or three. In fact, for the record - you would have to shoot 300/300 targets to move up to Masters. More realistically, if you shot 90% of your 1st 400 targets you would still not be in Master class. You would need to score more than 90% out of your 1st 500 targets to get to Master class. And if you can do that then I would say you ARE a master class shooter. And the purpose of the classification system in the CNSCA is to keep shooters competing against shooters of their own caliber. You know in the CNSCA that when you are shooting A class or B class or AA class or Master class that the other shooters in that class are of the same skill level as you. You advance to the next class by maintaining an average that justifies it. Not by going to some small backwoods club where you can be the big fish in a little pond and get your punches. The NSCA classification system is geared towards advancing shooters to the Master class whether they actually shoot at a Master class level or not. I look at the averages of the NSCA shooters in each class and see such disparity that it makes no sense to compete in any class. I see guys with low averages in high class and high averages in low class.

And the NSCA does not give out cash prizes. Are you kidding me? Where did you hear that? The clubs offer prizes based on revenue from the shoot or from sponsorship - but that cash does NOT come from the NSCA. Whereas the CNSCA sends your target fees and membership fees back to the Provincial Associations so that they can offer programs like paying 50% of ladies and juniors shoot fees (Alberta) to encourage new membership. What does NSCA do? They certainly do NOT provide cash prize money. If you want to give your money to the US go right ahead. But you can give up on any hope of seeing that money do shooters in Canada any good.

I've stated many times what the CNSCA does for the shooter in Canada. How about someone step up and tell me what the NSCA does for the shooter in Canada?
 
Claybuster said:
It's a very important rule. If I set the targets I've probably shot them or at least know the tricks and will kick the ass of most shooters even those of far greater ability.


From what I've seen in this thread the CNSCA's main accomplishment for Canadian shooters is DQing you from any FITASC event in the world unless you are a member.
Click to expand...

The rule in the CNSCA is that you cannot pre-shoot a course. You can pre-view it. So a target setter can compete as long as he hasn't pre-shot it. Does that give him an advantage? Not really. Maybe when he is first in the stand. Other than that - I think he is still only as good as his skill.

Re: FITASC - This is no different than the NSCA. If you are an American and try to compete in a FITASC shoot without being a member of the NSCA, you are breaking FITASC rules. Why are so many people so dead set on the idea that FITASC's rules shouldn't apply to them?
 
fwow said:
The rule in the CNSCA is that you cannot pre-shoot a course. You can pre-view it. So a target setter can compete as long as he hasn't pre-shot it. Does that give him an advantage? Not really. Maybe when he is first in the stand. Other than that - I think he is still only as good as his skill.

Re: FITASC - This is no different than the NSCA. If you are an American and try to compete in a FITASC shoot without being a member of the NSCA, you are breaking FITASC rules. Why are so many people so dead set on the idea that FITASC's rules shouldn't apply to them?
Click to expand...
Setting the targets gives you an advantage even if you don't shoot them. Perhaps I've set them to trick the shooter with a specific background. Those two crossers might look identical but slight changes in angle or spring tension can make them very different. Sometimes seeing a presentation from an angle different than what you get in the stand will give you a better idea what it's doing. Others shooters are definitely disadvantaged seeing a presentation for the first time when I've seen it repeatedly and have pre-determined my foot position, eye hold, gun hold and move to the second target before they've even seen the lookers.
 
Claybuster said:
Setting the targets gives you an advantage even if you don't shoot them. Perhaps I've set them to trick the shooter with a specific background. Those two crossers might look identical but slight changes in angle or spring tension can make them very different. Sometimes seeing a presentation from an angle different than what you get in the stand will give you a better idea what it's doing. Others shooters are definitely disadvantaged seeing a presentation for the first time when I've seen it repeatedly and have pre-determined my foot position, eye hold, gun hold and move to the second target before they've even seen the lookers.
Click to expand...

I understand the advantage on paper but I cannot agree with the advantage in reality. Either you can shoot or you can't. Either you are better than the other guy or you aren't. Either you hare having a better day than the other guy or you aren't. I can look at a target from every possible angle and work out my hold and break point and everything else but until I pull the trigger from the stand, I won't KNOW where to hit it.

The other thing I feel negates the advantage (somewhat) is that target setter is most often the guy responsible for the operation of the course. He is the guy thinking "I wonder if they are having problems with the double teal machine". He is the guy that is most tuned to the sounds coming from the next station when he hears "just try clearing it again". In other words, the guy that set the course will be least able to focus on his game.

When the target setters start winning, I'll get on board and want to see the rule changed but until then let them shoot if they want. I ain't afraid of no target setter.
 
Here are a few target setters that have won or close: Charles Schneible, Neil Chadwick, Venero Spada, Tim Hubner, Ben Husthwait, Scott Robinson, Eric Manshoven, Butch Trombley, a number of other European top shooters, plus a few more from New England and the Toronto area. When I set targets at our club or helped set targets South of the border, I would disqualify my score. One knows what to set to deceive the shooter and where it should be shot.
 
No the winscore only show's the great NSCA shooters scores, the hunter scores were not posted. The total amount of shooters was 91, or did you miss that on the winscore page. As everyone here knows your not one of the supporters of the sport here in Canada, you have your own agenda. Why don't you ask the shooters from Quebec,Nova Scotia and New Brunswick what they thought of the shoot. You can make any assumption you want, it was a great shoot and next year it will be bigger and better.
On another note what do you know about target setting? Where south of the boarder have you set targets for any tournament? Your the one that likes to say you did all so now you can explain it to everyone here.
 
I understand the advantage on paper but I cannot agree with the advantage in reality. Either you can shoot or you can't. Either you are better than the other guy or you aren't. Either you hare having a better day than the other guy or you aren't. I can look at a target from every possible angle and work out my hold and break point and everything else but until I pull the trigger from the stand, I won't KNOW where to hit it.

The other thing I feel negates the advantage (somewhat) is that target setter is most often the guy responsible for the operation of the course. He is the guy thinking "I wonder if they are having problems with the double teal machine". He is the guy that is most tuned to the sounds coming from the next station when he hears "just try clearing it again". In other words, the guy that set the course will be least able to focus on his game.

When the target setters start winning, I'll get on board and want to see the rule changed but until then let them shoot if they want. I ain't afraid of no target setter.

Well said FWOW.

The other thing that needs to be understood is that we are human, we are not machines, at least most of us. We are not infallible. Previewing or pre-shooting a course may help some but not others. It generally hinders me. This past weekend we shot several rounds of 5-stand, just single targets. With the exception of 1 shooter, the scores of all other shooters went down for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th round of targets. Not only did they preview the course, they pre-shot it and it still didn't help. This is not an isolated incident. I see it regularly with probably 50% of the shooters improving on subsequent rounds and the other half getting worse. The brain is getting in the way, people are starting to over think the problem. One shooter was clean after 10 targets, then missed 10 of the next 15 even though these were the same presentations. One size does not fit all.
 
There is only 1 club I have not received a cash prize from when winning punches, granted I'm not winning HOA so it's never much ($4 in NY!) but it's consistent. So no, I'm not kidding

As for scoring; re-run the math, where in the classification of the CNSCA rules does it describethrocess you described? Section V,Part B, new shooter starts in C (or higher), and then average of 400targets, the it gets adjusted every shoot. A new shooter goes out and shoots the Federal 400, they start in C, they shoot a 77, and they are classed up to Master. They may be that good; but should it not take more than 1 shoot to be able to get there? I'm not saying the NSCA punch system is perfect either, and I agree it favours those who can shoot registered targets every week all year long, but this is a competitive sport so being able to move up without ever having to win a shoot takes away from that.

I will give the CNSCA the half price from ladies and juniors is a good perk. And as an honest question, has anyone in Canada tried to take advantage of the scholarship, and sponsorship options the NSCA offers? They are very public about their programs, but I have a feeling that no one knows because no one goes after them.

Target setting may or may not help, depends on the level of the shooter. For me, it would do nothing. For John Kruger, George Digweed, or Don Currey it's a different story; and at the end of the day it's the principle of the matter and eliminating even the appearance of favouritism.
 
Sapper33 said:
There is only 1 club I have not received a cash prize from when winning punches, granted I'm not winning HOA so it's never much ($4 in NY!) but it's consistent. So no, I'm not kidding

As for scoring; re-run the math, where in the classification of the CNSCA rules does it describethrocess you described? Section V,Part B, new shooter starts in C (or higher), and then average of 400targets, the it gets adjusted every shoot. A new shooter goes out and shoots the Federal 400, they start in C, they shoot a 77, and they are classed up to Master. They may be that good; but should it not take more than 1 shoot to be able to get there? I'm not saying the NSCA punch system is perfect either, and I agree it favours those who can shoot registered targets every week all year long, but this is a competitive sport so being able to move up without ever having to win a shoot takes away from that.

I will give the CNSCA the half price from ladies and juniors is a good perk. And as an honest question, has anyone in Canada tried to take advantage of the scholarship, and sponsorship options the NSCA offers? They are very public about their programs, but I have a feeling that no one knows because no one goes after them.

Target setting may or may not help, depends on the level of the shooter. For me, it would do nothing. For John Kruger, George Digweed, or Don Currey it's a different story; and at the end of the day it's the principle of the matter and eliminating even the appearance of favouritism.
Click to expand...

The cash prize you received does not come from the NSCA. It is at the club's discretion to award cash prizes and that would come out of the club's pocket based on revenue from the shoot. But the cash does NOT come from the NSCA.

With regards to the scholarship you mentioned - If you check on the eligibility you will see an interesting clause "Selection is based on scholarship, citizenship and NSCA participation." Canadians would be ineligible for the scholarship as we are not American citizens. Your money that you paid in target fees and NSCA membership helps send AMERICAN kids to school. So I ask once again - what does the NSCA do for Canadians?

As for the math, I don't need to re-run the math. I do the stats for the CNSCA. I know how the math works. Let me share how it works with you. A shooter starts in C class or higher with an arbitrary average of 60 weighted with 400 targets.

If a shooter goes to their first shoot and it is the Fed 400 and scores a 320 (80%), their average would be 240/400 + 320/400 = 560/800 = 70% = A class.

If they go to another 400 target event and shoot 80% again their average would be 240/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 = 880/1200 = 73.33% = AA class.

If they go to another 400 target event and shoot 80% again their average would be 240/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 = 1200/1600 = 75% = AA class.

If they go to another 400 target event and shoot 80% again their average would be 240/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 = 1520/2000 = 76% = AA class.

If they go to another 400 target event and shoot 80% again their average would be 240/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 + 320/400 = 1840/2400 = 76.67 % = Master class.

The shooter had to shoot 80% out of 2000 targets to get to master class - not 77% of 400. I agree, the average system isn't perfect but it is FAR from the flawed system you make it out to be.

Sorry, but the facts just don't support the arguments being made for the NSCA benefitting Canadians. The NSCA is a great organization - but it is an American organization that benefits Americans. And that is why you aren't seeing many people speak up. When it comes to the benefits for Canadians, the facts speak in favour of the CNSCA.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom