Fixing too much shoulder bump

[wajp]

After a year of searching I finally managed to find a Tikka T3 Varmint Stainless in 6.5 x 55 in October. I've always used either RCBS or Hornady dies but figured for such a beautiful rifle I should treat it right, so I picked up a Redding deluxe 3 die set and a box of Lapua brass. I realize that Lap brass is good to load straight out of the box but as a habit I always size new brass before loading, so I ran all 100 through the FL sizer. I then loaded them up and went to the range. My first shot, with my starting load fired just fine, but would not extract, it wasn't that the round was stuck but the extractor wasn't grabbing the rim. I popped out the case with a cleaning rod with no resistance whatsoever, so it wasn't that my load was too hot and stuck in the chamber, and noticed that the primer was backed out a good 15-20 thou. I've fired 2 boxes of factory ammo through it no problem so I know it's not the rifle. I measured the shoulder/neck junction with calipers, it should be at 1.856, but on my reloads it's closer to 1.840. I also picked up a hornady comparator just to confirm, and according to that my reload shoulders are almost 25 thou shorter than factory ammo.

I've already sent the dies back to Redding for warranty but I'm wondering is there anyway I can salvage this brass? Obviously Lapua brass ain't cheap, and I'd rather not toss over 100 bucks worth of brass if I can save it. I know with cases like the 260 you can neck up to 308 then back down to create a false shoulder, but there's no commercial cases based on the 6.5 that I know of, not to mention spending 50-60 bucks on a new die set kind of defeats the purpose. Could I use something like my 7-08 or 308 die just deep enough to run the expander through then neck back down with a lee collet to fix them?

The other idea I had was to fire the rest of the ammo as is, but hook each round into the extractor before chambering. In theory the extractor would stop the cartridge from moving forward, and since the round wont be wedged up against the shoulder then in theory it would blow the shoulder forward and fix my problem. The brass is still more than long enough and the bullets are seated long, so I'm not worried about gas cutting the chamber, but would this destroy my extractor or in any way damage the gun?

 

[Cleftwynd]

Pull the bullets out far enough to firmly contact the lands, that will keep the brass against the bolt face. However, make sure you reduce your load a bit if it is near max as this will increase peak pressure. You will then have fire formed brass

 

[358Rooster]

Pull the bullets out far enough to firmly contact the lands, that will keep the brass against the bolt face. However, make sure you reduce your load a bit if it is near max as this will increase peak pressure. You will then have fire formed brass

Exactly what I was going to suggest and given the long leade you'll encounter in that Tikka, hunt down a box of 160 round nose bullets for this exercise. They'll allow you a more 'abrupt' contact with the rifling and more shank length within the case neck.

Rooster

 

[Mystic Precision]

Did you check the brass BEFORE you sized it?

Maybe there is nothing wrong with the die?

To move a shoulder 25 thou, you would really KNOW about it and your reloading brain should have gone... WTF... then there would be obvious signs of moving a shoulder that much.

But if the brass is too short now, I would neck up and then form a false shoulder as you have described. Yes, you can use the expander ball on the 7-08 to start the neck open. Then partially size the neck down in a 6.5 die so you can jam case into chamber when you close the bolt.

I do not recommend using full pressure or anywhere near that when you have that much headspace... you will get irratic expansion in the case body. There is no doubt you will get some cases with stressed webs... now you have a FUBAR in cases of varying degrees of stress and damage.

Low pressure expansion with the COW method is far easier on your cases and you don't risk a case failure at high pressures.

YMMV.

Jerry

PS, some of your comments wrt to that fired case doesn't make any sense to me if you were using anything over starting loads. have a review of the rifle, chamber, your brass, your loading and make sure you aren't pushing a bigger problem to the next range session.

 

[Cummins]

Oil the brass and fire it, should slip back to the bolt and form out nice even at your low pressure loads.

 

[bigedp51]

Oil the brass and fire it, should slip back to the bolt and form out nice even at your low pressure loads.

I would never tell anyone to lube a case because it increases bolt thrust, meaning how hard the bolt face gets hammered when the cartridge fires. Your suggestion means the reloader would need to find the load pressure point where the fired case expands from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber and fills the chamber. Meaning the reloader would have to hunt for the right load and not apply more bolt thrust. Bottom line there are better methods for fireforming cases and lubing cases is a very bad idea.

Below the military tells you to "NEVER" lube your ammo.

.

The Sierra manuals tells you not to lube your ammo

The Lyman manual manual tells you not to lube your ammo.

The 1929 British Textbook of Small Arms tells you to not lube your ammo.

And the H.P. White Testing Laboratory explain what causes gun failures.

Bottom line, our cases are designed to grip the chamber walls when fired and this "reduces" bolt thrust. And no one in this forum has the test equipment to measure bolt thrust and give out advice on lubing your cases.

Cummins, in the early 1970s I lubed my ammo because a friend said it was OK to do so, and I ended up with bolt setback and increased headspace in this rifle. On older rifles and milsurp rifles it is even worse advice because they are made of softer steels. And there is a reason why the Enfield rifle had replaceable bolt heads. So again I would NEVER tell anyone to lube their ammo because of the problems and danger involved and just being being unsafe.

 

[Cleftwynd]

Ooh! Big Ed once again with the info hammer! Lol

 

[Cummins]

I've read up on it too I know it worked for me, instead of brass stretching in the web it slides back and pushes the shoulders out. Your right not for the faint of heart. And I only would do this first firing of brand new brass to be used in that rifle would not see any benifit under normal use.

 

[TedNugent]

This is good advice to hear, and I, for one, am glad we are fortunate to have someone to 'let us have it' every once in awhile.

 

[bigedp51]

I've read up on it too I know it worked for me, instead of brass stretching in the web it slides back and pushes the shoulders out. Your right not for the faint of heart. And I only would do this first firing of brand new brass to be used in that rifle would not see any benifit under normal use.

Cummins, many reloaders lube their case to fireform them and much of this advice comes from benchrest shooters. The problem is finding the "correct" load with a lubed case that exerts the same bolt thrust as a "DRY" chamber and cartridge. The real problem is this case lubing advice gets out of hand and can and does increase the bolt thrust and cause bolt setback and increased headspace.

As an example the No.1 Enfield rifle was proof pressure tested using two oiled proof cartridges and if the headspace increased .003 the Enfield failed proof testing. And a oiled or lubed cartridge in a 30-30 Winchester would also cause bolt setback and weaken the rifle. Meaning using lubed cases in older designed rifles will beyond a shadow of a doubt damage these rifles.

And I as a new reloader in 1973 didn't know what bolt thrust was or think a little oil in the chamber and bore would cause damage to my rifle.

The firearms industry, the reloading manufactures and even the military tells you to not lube your ammo for a good reason. And your face and hands will pay the price of any catastrophic failure of your firearms. And my face and eyesight is worth more the a few pieces of brass.

So Cummins you understand how bolt thrust works when you made your first post, BUT its the new reloaders and inexperienced people who are the ones who will pay for their mistakes.

 

[nitro-express]

With 35 Rem, and a similar situation, I necked up to 416 (375 than 416) and back down, without annealing and it worked for me. I just put some LEE expanders in my LEE universal primer removal die. I had to shorten the die a bit, they're cheap enough.

0.025 is a bit, really the brass should be scrapped. The minimal risk is incipient head separation. I would pull the bullets.

Unfired brass should be able to be necked up, and back down without annealing. Annealing has associated risks, which makes a box of new brass seem cheap.

I know the feeling, cleaned and resized 300 rounds once, and regret I never measured before I did it, and I didn't even keep a single case for reference, my bad. One seems to remember the lessons that cost the most.

 

[bearhunter]

OP, these knowledgeable folks are blessing you with worst case scenarios. I agree you need to be careful.

I am willing to bet your load recipes were from a book that said they were safe for or tested in a Swede 94/96/38 Mauser. Your T3 is far stronger. It also has a long throat if it is like mine. You may not be able to seat your bullets out far enough to hold the base of the cartridge against the bolt face.

It has been my experience that the extractor will hold the base close enough to do the job. The expanding gasses will push the case back the few thou you need to iron out and will expand the rest of the case to fill the chamber. This usually works out well but it can also cause a ring near the base of the cartridge about 1/4 of the way up from the base. For the most part this will not be a concern as it often occurs with new factory as well as first time loaded brass. If you are at all concerned, err on the side of safety as the previous posters have been trying to impress upon you. Pull the bullets and save the powder, throw the rest away if you are uncomfortable. Personally I would chamber and shoot the ammo but feed it from the magazine. Do not feed it by hand and close the bolt on it. You need to make sure the lip of the rim is under the extractor.

One of the most similar mistakes newbies to reloading make is to set their sizing die to low and push back the shoulder. It's easy to do if you don't know better. When you are setting your die for height, there is a simple proven method.

Mark the neck shoulder area with a black felt pen or smoke from a candle. I like the felt pen. Turn in your sizing die until it just touches the shell head holder when the mandrel is fully extended. Then back it off one full turn.

Place a lubed case in the shell head holder and raise the mandrel to the top dead center of the stroke.

Retract the mandrel and inspect the case. There should be a mark on the neck where the case has reached into the sizing die.

Adjust the die down if necessary or up if the shoulder of the cartridge case has come into contact with the sizing die and been set back more than a few thousandths. Usually if it is just touching the shoulder enough to just smudge the ink on the shoulder that would indicate a successful full length resized case.

Once you have established this setting, lock the locking ring on the die when it is set flush with the top of the press. This should not have to be changed unless you use the same die for other rifles. Likely not even then.

Feed the unprimed empty case into the chamber by hand and make sure the extractor is over the rim. Close the bolt completely and if it does so freely, without any hang up, all should be well to proceed from there. I would do more than one to make sure it's repeatable. Then set one aside for future reference.

I usually set aside one each of the case sized to where I want it for each chamber and another that is assembled with a bullet only to determine OAL to the leade or as long as the magazine will handle it properly.

 

[Mystic Precision]

OP, these knowledgeable folks are blessing you with worst case scenarios. I agree you need to be careful.

I am willing to bet your load recipes were from a book that said they were safe for or tested in a Swede 94/96/38 Mauser. Your T3 is far stronger. It also has a long throat if it is like mine. You may not be able to seat your bullets out far enough to hold the base of the cartridge against the bolt face. POINT A

It has been my experience that the extractor will hold the base close enough to do the job. The expanding gasses will push the case back the few thou you need to iron out and will expand the rest of the case to fill the chamber. This usually works out well but it can also cause a ring near the base of the cartridge about 1/4 of the way up from the base. For the most part this will not be a concern as it often occurs with new factory as well as first time loaded brass. POINT B...

If you are at all concerned, err on the side of safety as the previous posters have been trying to impress upon you. Pull the bullets and save the powder, throw the rest away if you are uncomfortable. Personally I would chamber and shoot the ammo but feed it from the magazine. Do not feed it by hand and close the bolt on it. You need to make sure the lip of the rim is under the extractor. POINT C

One of the most similar mistakes newbies to reloading make is to set their sizing die to low and push back the shoulder. It's easy to do if you don't know better. When you are setting your die for height, there is a simple proven method.

Mark the neck shoulder area with a black felt pen or smoke from a candle. I like the felt pen. Turn in your sizing die until it just touches the shell head holder when the mandrel is fully extended. Then back it off one full turn.

Place a lubed case in the shell head holder and raise the mandrel to the top dead center of the stroke.

Retract the mandrel and inspect the case. There should be a mark on the neck where the case has reached into the sizing die.

Adjust the die down if necessary or up if the shoulder of the cartridge case has come into contact with the sizing die and been set back more than a few thousandths. Usually if it is just touching the shoulder enough to just smudge the ink on the shoulder that would indicate a successful full length resized case. POINT D

Once you have established this setting, lock the locking ring on the die when it is set flush with the top of the press. This should not have to be changed unless you use the same die for other rifles. Likely not even then. POINT E

Feed the unprimed empty case into the chamber by hand and make sure the extractor is over the rim. Close the bolt completely and if it does so freely, without any hang up, all should be well to proceed from there. I would do more than one to make sure it's repeatable. Then set one aside for future reference. POINT F

I usually set aside one each of the case sized to where I want it for each chamber and another that is assembled with a bullet only to determine OAL to the leade or as long as the magazine will handle it properly.

POINT A: If the throat is too long, either you need a much heavier/longer bullet or the throat is too long to provide anything resembling accurate fire. This still does not resolve the fact that any slip in the bullet upon chambering can lead to headspace issues again. Can be inconsistent. NEVER DEPEND ON AN ACTION STRENGTH TO RESOLVE BAD LOADING TECHNIQUE.

POINT B: If you have a bulge in your fired case, you got some real issues with headspace, bolt lock up, bolt flex, action flex, bent chamber, and on it goes. A bulge in a case in a sure sign of pending case head separation and should be TOSSED into the garbage. Same goes for a bright shiny line near the web area.

Go and no go is a whooping 5 thou difference for pretty much ALL SAAMI regulated cartridges.. some are less, some are 1 thou more. Anything larger and you are into field or "dont use it status"... A human hair is considered 3 thou thick for reference. If you can SEE it easily, you have TOO much gap. The OP is suggesting differences that are WAY outside spec for the case dimension.

POINT C: The Tikka T3 is a PUSH FEED action.. how do you ensure the extractor is in the case extractor groove on a push feed action with a case too small???? How does feeding from the mag makes this any more sure?

POINT D: you assume the die is actually sized properly every single time from every single manf???? If you are correct, how is it possible this situation could even exist wrt to oversizing the case????

POINT E: you assume that every "same" chamber is the same size in every rifle from every manf????

POINT F: the op has done this very same thing with "zero" chambering issues.. how does this help a case with WAY too much headspace? You can mag feed a 308 case into a 30-06 chamber and that bolt is going to close without a single hint of resistance. I bet in a controlled feed action, you would even get the case to go BOOM. How is this a good thing?

Use the proper tools and gauges ... KNOW the answer you are after.. CONFIRM what the dimensions of your components and dies are. If not, seek COMPETENT help.

For reference... Forster Headspace gauge for the 6.5X55 Mauser - 1.779" GO gauge, 1.785" NO GO gauge, 1.789" FIELD gauge... anything larger is considered unsafe to be fired under any circumstance. When vigin brass is fired in a field gauge sized chamber, it is considered over stretched and should be tossed.

The OP is suggesting a difference of some reference point to approach 25 thou... WAAAAYYYY too big. Again, we assume measuring is done properly.

There is plenty of well thought anecdotal tips to help but so much of this is based on the fact that overlapping tolerances are still close enough to not really cause much problem even with some heavy doses of OOOOPSIE.

But we are talking about chamber and case difference that are dangerously big.. something does not add up. Get some proper help if unsure how to check and resolve.

OR fireform properly as you would with a wildcat.

For alot of this stuff, I couldn't care less on the tech as most everything kind of sort of works... BUT some of this advice is down right WRONG and potentially dangerous.

Review the numbers offered by the OP and if he is measuring correctly, proper and correct remedy should be taken immediately.

If in doubt... THROW IT OUT...

Sorry, for the rant but I don't want to read about missing fingers and toes...

Jerry

 

[BigUglyMan]

There is no reason that necking the brass up and then back down wouldn't work. I would use a .277" expander. No sense in going too big. I did similar when I necked up 30-06 to 9.3x62. Necked up in two stages to .400" (IIRC) then into the 9.3 sizer. Lost 3 (if memory serves) out of 100. Then I realized it was all my Garand brass. ####.

 

[Cleftwynd]

Jerry, it's also common practice to fireform cartridges using primer, powder and bullets. Look at AI examples, load up a standard factory round and fire it, viola, you now have AI brass. Provided the chamber was reamed properly.

This is why I suggested seating the bullet long enough to be firmly into the lands, I should have added heavy neck tension is required as well. I also suggested using a load below max to reduce pressures created from the lack of bullet jump.


Great posts by all if you ask me.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Jerry, it's also common practice to fireform cartridges using primer, powder and bullets. Look at AI examples, load up a standard factory round and fire it, viola, you now have AI brass. Provided the chamber was reamed properly..

This is why I suggested seating the bullet long enough to be firmly into the lands, I should have added heavy neck tension is required as well. I also suggested using a load below max to reduce pressures created from the lack of bullet jump.


Great posts by all if you ask me.

And remember this and oops, forgot to mention that.... That is the problem with some info.. it is not complete nor take into account every possible problem.

If there was a list that broke down EVERY step and gave explicit instructions and the user was able to confirm properly, hey fly at it. That is what those who love wildcatting do.

But you have incomplete info given to a brand new reloader who hasn't got a firm grasp of the basics and then expect them to do "post doc" experiments???

Not a good idea.

WRT to the Ackley style of "AI" cases and proper forming, the new chamber is actually 'short' vs the parent case. PO Ackley did not depend on the bullet jamming into anything. He wanted there to be a "crush" fit with the case in the chamber which would firmly and properly hold the brass in place during expansion.

This allows the user to use a factory rd of the parent case and fire safely in the improved chamber. The bullet is not jammed and the case expands ensuring some reduction in chamber pressure... there is never a risk of overpressure if the parent case is loaded properly.

Why you simply cannot run an improved reamer into a chamber and call it done. There has to be a set back to ensure that crush fit.. otherwise, proper steps have to be taken to ensure safe case forming. Betting that extractor is holding the case properly is NOT safe case forming.

Using the bullet jamming method is VERY problematic.. there is nothing standardised. Throats can vary a massive amount. So can the type and style of bullet used causing all manner of difference in engraving forces thus chamber pressures. Neck tension can be all over the map which add yet another bottle of gas onto the fire.

Now how much powder do I use again????

Sorry, I am not brave enough to give that advice.

Jerry

 

[wajp]

Thanks all for the advice, including PMs. Just to answer a few things:

- I right now have 140 gr Match Burners loaded to 3.100 they're not even one caliber into the neck. I tried finding the lands and didn't have any luck, the COAL for the 6.5 is 3.150, at 3.160 I still wasn't in the lands and the bullet was barely seated past the boat tail at that point. 140 is pretty much the heaviest match bullet I know of for 6.5, minus the 142 SMK which isn't really much longer, so there's no way I'm going to be able to seat close to/jam the lands with this rifle, unless I get some work done, or I go with the 160 gr RN which doesn't do me much good for match shooting.

- I setup the FL die to be in contact with the shellholder when the ram is at the top of its stroke which is the way I've always done it with every other cartridge I've loaded and never had any issues. It's also what the Redding manual that came with the dies said to do. I know alot of people back the die out abit to get the right shoulder bump for their rifle, but a standard non-custom non-competition die should be setting the shoulder within factory tolerances when it's bottomed out, especially if that's what the instructions say to do. The fact that these shoulders are set back as far as they are means that either my die is out of spec, my shellholder is way out of spec (also sent to Redding so they can check it), or I got a batch of bad brass. It is Lapua so I doubt the brass is the issue. Has anyone ever had issues with either undersized brass or out of spec dies?

- I did notice extra resistance when resizing, but I chalked that up Lapua brass being harder than the Norma and Remington/Winchester that I'm used to. I've only been loading for a year and a half now, and this is my first experience with Lap, so I'm still developing my reloader sense.

I already have new brass on the way, this time I'm going to be checking it before I do anything. I'm also waiting to see what Redding has to say once they get my dies. Who knows, maybe I'm the unlucky guy who got a factory dud.

In the meantime I'll try putting a false shoulder in and seeing how that works out, though it'll likely be more of an exercise in how to do it than anything else. I might just toss the rest of the brass in the scrap bucket. Like was said earlier, 25 thou is a pretty big difference, and I'm starting to think that 100 bucks in brass is preferable to a trip to the doctor. At the very least I learned an important lesson about trusting new dies and components.

 

[Cleftwynd]

Jerry, you are definitely correct, I was running on too many assumptions, one being I assume most people of not all would have measured to the lands of their rifle when they reload for it. At the very least.

When I read your replies I realize those assumptions shouldn't be made here.

I am posting from an iPhone 4, screen is too small for me to elaborate and proof read my own reply. So I'll leave it at that.


Thanks for sharing and clearing that up kind sir.

 

[Mystic Precision]

wajp, you have just learnt the most important part in reloading... TRUST NOTHING, MEASURE EVERYTHING... TWICE.

And ALWAYS use a starting load when you change ANY component... there are very good reasons why this rule exists.

Getting brass way out of spec is rare but far from impossible. I just helped a customer who was having case rupturing in a new prefit barrel that was headspaced properly. Round and round.. eventually, the barrel went back for a review showing no problem BUT in the testing, we discovered factory cases that were massively undersized in the case diameter. This was the route of the problem.

The big surprise, that batch of brass was purchased in Canada by the customer and the US by the barrel maker at different times... how big is this lot of bad brass? Why was it not caught?

When I asked the customer to check the brass, I was given the green light all was well... and double checked by the "smith". Well, ooops to them cause had they actually done what I had asked, the problem would have been resolved in 5 secs.

I have seen bad batches of brass from pretty much every brand I have ever used (except new gen Norma). This is still a man made product and FUBARs happen.

Jerry

PS, when you say the bullet is not engraving, how much of the bearing surface is physically in the case neck?

 

[wajp]

Seated where they are now there's roughly .195 of the bearing surface in the neck, so at 3.150 there would be under .150.