Flashbang Sustainability Question??

[HKNova6]

Please stop

 

[Paul_1982]

Yeah, but the type of pants you wear sometimes are different than most others here, (most, but not all ), the type of pants where you hand out gold tickets...


I have hard time believing that Lamperd Less Lethal, the wholesaler/middle-man and Lockhart Tactical all managed to manufacture these and get them to market for the public, while somehow not knowing they are prohibited and the government not intervening is their sale, if they were prohibited, despite being well aware of them...

Lockhart had already advised early on that the government was aware of these and had even made some rumblings about them, thus warning people that their status could change, (especially if people do something stupid with them), but as of right now, they are legal.

All that aside, even if some ignorant (of the law) and/or over-zealous officer were to find someone in possession of these, while I could see them possibly being seized (hopefully temporarily), charges being laid would be unlikely. But again, that would depend if the reason the police found them in the first place was if someone was doing something stupid with them...

I'm not trying to be difficult at all, I too hope and believe the manufacturer and distributer did their homework. Problem is many manufacturers in countries outside of ours really don't care to learn our laws, and in the past I've seen a sort of buy at your own risk mentality- expecting the Canadian distributer to do the legal homework before ordering.

Maybe they already answered it in another thread... or maybe they answered it in their post earlier in this topic and I'm too dense to get it. I look at the laws as written and am just trying to determine the status in terms of the definition written... that's all.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

I'm not trying to be difficult at all, I too hope and believe the manufacturer and distributer did their homework. Problem is many manufacturers in countries outside of ours really don't care to learn our laws, and in the past I've seen a sort of buy at your own risk mentality- expecting the Canadian distributer to do the legal homework before ordering.

Maybe they already answered it in another thread... or maybe they answered it in their post earlier in this topic and I'm too dense to get it. I look at the laws as written and am just trying to determine the status in terms of the definition written... that's all.

Well, fortunately these are made in Canada.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

They removed from industrial explosives or actually gave certain military/police explosives their own Class D, no license required for entry devices in 2013. However those are restricted, considered highly specialized and not for commercial distribution.

Apparently? the above and the NFDDs in question aren't the same under law. I suspect the reality is there is no problem under the Explosive act but maybe something in the CCC.

"Maybe"...? Sounds definitive. Was there any particular CCC section that you had in mind?


(please don't say 88.1)

 

[Paul_1982]

Well, fortunately these are made in Canada.

Well that's good news ☺

 

[skypilot]

"Maybe"...? Sounds definitive. Was there any particular CCC section that you had in mind?


(please don't say 88.1)

Lol. No, it was just a general "don't use them in a criminal undertaking" kind of way that would bring any existing CCC charges.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

Lol. No, it was just a general "don't use them in a criminal undertaking" kind of way that would bring any existing CCC charges.

Fair enough. That's why I keep adding the cautionary; "as long as people don't do something stupid with these", to many of my comments.

But, basically, if used as prescribed, you don't see a criminal code issue?

 

[skypilot]

Fair enough. That's why I keep adding the cautionary; "as long as people don't do something stupid with these", to many of my comments.

But, basically, if used as prescribed, you don't see a criminal code issue?

What EXACTLY does it look like? Does it look EXACTLY line a real LEO/MIL NFDD? That would be my concern if attention is drawn and I had no license for the real one. Sort of the same thing Paul is bringing up.

As LE, I can't easily tell how it is primed/fused and charged from the outside. If it is colored and banded like a real one...........
I, even as a cop don't have heartburn over them in the law abiding hands, however Canada has a whole different view of the masses than I'm used to.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

What EXACTLY does it look like? Does it look EXACTLY line a real LEO/MIL NFDD? That would be my concern if attention is drawn and I had no license for the real one. Sort of the same thing Paul is bringing up.

As LE, I can't easily tell how it is primed/fused and charged from the outside. If it is colored and banded like a real one...........
I, even as a cop don't have heartburn over them in the law abiding hands, however Canada has a whole different view of the masses than I'm used to.

"Exactly"...? No. (they weren't intended to be replicas of another product).

"Similar"...? Sure, of course. Because they are. But have a look for yourself; http://www.lockharttactical.com/category/product/8569321-defense-less-lethal-flash-bang-grenade

But the real question is, do you know what a "real" Mil\LE NFDD looks like? I only ask because people would be surprised how many cops actually don't have a clue what a they look like...

Then again, how cops are arresting kids for having airsoft grenades? Some of them look pretty realistic.

Then there are those new hot sauce and tequila brands that come in an M-84 canisters...

LLL FB

M84

Airsoft

Hot Sauce

Tequila

 

[Paul_1982]

"Exactly"...? No. (they weren't intended to be replicas of another product).

"Similar"...? Sure, of course. Because they are. But have a look for yourself; http://www.lockharttactical.com/category/product/8569321-defense-less-lethal-flash-bang-grenade

But the real question is, do you know what a "real" Mil\LE NFDD looks like? I only ask because people would be surprised how many cops actually don't have a clue what a they look like...

Then again, how cops are arresting kids for having airsoft grenades? Some of them look pretty realistic.

Then there are those new hot sauce and tequila brands that come in an M-84 canisters...

LLL FB

M84

Airsoft

Hot Sauce

Tequila

I REALLY didn't want to keep this going... about 95% of those reading this just rolled their eyes haha, stop reading now!

Reading that link and checking the manufacturers website.... they are designed for use by law enforcement... not a "training aid" as has been expressed previously. That worries me in terms of the legality of these. If real police flash bangs are illegal for possession without a licence- how are these any different?

Unless they use a gas to cause the ignition, flash and bang (like the airsoft ones for example), I fail to see how these escape the Explosives Act. I searched for the manufacturer on the approved explosives list- and it's not there. The fact that it is being marketed as a Police Use flash bang also is an issue- do these now fall into the Type D explosives for Police use only (Type D)? If so:

Rules for Users

Marginal note:Acquisition — licensed user

210 (1) A user may acquire and store military explosives or law enforcement explosives if they hold a licence. A user who acquires military explosives or law enforcement explosives must comply with subsection (2).


Marginal note:Storage — licensed user

(2) A user must store their military explosives and law enforcement explosives in the magazine specified in their licence.


Marginal note:Acquisition — exception

211 (1) Despite subsection 210(1), a law enforcement agency may acquire and store military explosives, hazard category PE 3 or PE 4, or law enforcement explosives, hazard category PE 3 or PE 4, even if the agency is unlicensed. A law enforcement agency that acquires such explosives must comply with subsection (2).

I mean a roman candle is covered by this act.... how can this not be?

 

[skypilot]

"Exactly"...? No. (they weren't intended to be replicas of another product).

"Similar"...? Sure, of course. Because they are. But have a look for yourself; http://www.lockharttactical.com/category/product/8569321-defense-less-lethal-flash-bang-grenade

But the real question is, do you know what a "real" Mil\LE NFDD looks like? I only ask because people would be surprised how many cops actually don't have a clue what a they look like...

Then again, how cops are arresting kids for having airsoft grenades? Some of them look pretty realistic.

Then there are those new hot sauce and tequila brands that come in an M-84 canisters...

LLL FB

M84

Airsoft

Hot Sauce

Tequila

Yes, I know a bit about FBs.
That doesn't look like any brand of authentic NFDD I am familiar with and doesn't appear to have the amount of labeling/writing like ALS, CTS, etc.

As I said before, I have no hearburn about them. Meaning who cares as long as it's not used criminally. However, I'm not Canadian and my views don't count as law. My views are American in nature. Meaning if it's real, it needs a license and approved magazine just like we use on the HRT. If it's not real and itsn't used criminally, who cares?

 

[bacardi]

Yes, hilarious. What's the difference? You still demanded they prove it. I showed you your very own quote and you're still trying to back peddle out?



I quoted your very words. Not my fault you won't stand by them. (and what's with the "personal financial interest" insinuation?)



Your words speak for themselves.



Again, see you own words. (and, insults now?)



They're called "quotes". Amazing things...



I saw some people ask questions. They were answered. Then dozens and dozens of people bought hundreds of these. Now there is just you going on and on their legality and false advertising. If you want YOUR doubts removed, then why don't YOU call NRC? Instead going on and on and on and on and...

(and more insults? is this what this is coming to?)



And even more insults. So apparently this is what this has come to. And again with the "personal stake" accusations?



"Suppress" what? You posted comments. I replied. In what way have I tried to block or prevent anyone from reading anything you've posted? "Suppress"...? Get a dictionary.

And, again... if I'm posting your very own quotes, how are they "lies"? Sheesh...



Again, you lowering yourself even further with yet more insults.




"Clear proof" that Lockhart has "misrepresented their product"...? Somehow many us missed that. Perhaps you could make it clearer?




Ah, so now you claim (somehow) that you weren't calling everyone who bought these a moron, and that you were just calling me one (who didn't buy any). Got it.

Are these constant personal insults really all your capable of?




Annnnddd another insult. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.




Again, what do you even mean by that? You think that by insinuating that I have some secret agenda by trying make sense of your accusations, will somehow... what? Deflect away from your own comments that you are so desperately trying to disown?

How is posting your. own. quotes. in any way a "lie" or "misrepresentation"...? And "tirade"...? seriously, get a dictionary. The only example of a "tirade" here are your constant, baseless accusations against this vendor and your blatant insults posted towards others here, including myself.

Why don't you me tell what you think I'm "hiding"



And some blasphemy now as well. You really don't have any respect for anyone, do you?



"All I've done..." Really? That's what you think? You could've posted that you are concerned about the legality of these and further wished the ad was more detailed, just once, and then left it alone. But you didn't. It seems that until people say; "Gee Gimil, you were sooo right and we were all sooo wrong!", that you will just keep hammering away at this. And the more you don't get want you want, the more petulant and abusive you become, with these now persistent ad hominem attacks.



"Straw men [sic] arguments"...? Do you even understand the concept of rhetoric? Explain just how, exactly, that is a straw man fallacy?

I wrote; "You think these might be illegal. You think Lockhart misrepresented them."

That is somehow misrepresentative of what you've been saying? So, you don't think these might be illegal? You don't think Lockhart misrepresented these items? Whew! Good. So, problem solved. We're done now, right?


Somehow I doubt that though. You seem to have a case of must-have-last-word-itis and I'm sure another slew of accusations and insults are to follow. So, since there is rally nothing left to say about this, it's time for this end. I'm going to hit the anti-troll button and add you the ignore list, where you clearly belong. But, please... feel free to post something that I won't see...

Wow this guy is a pest everywhere eh? He got what was coming to him......BANNED

 

[skypilot]

He didn't pop smoke in time, apparently............

I would recommend goofy grape, it would have been perfect for this occassion.