Flintlock ID help needed
- Thread starter jpc
- Start date
- Location
- Algoma region
Wow,thats something indeed!!
Lock design and trigger guard geometry strike me as someting like a Indian trade musket for the north American trade.... the butt design seems more slight and barrel length...umm as I dare a guess possibly for the African trade in the mid + 19th century??
Is it 62 - 69 or 75 cal?? smoothbore I presume??.
Its neat.
Lock design and trigger guard geometry strike me as someting like a Indian trade musket for the north American trade.... the butt design seems more slight and barrel length...umm as I dare a guess possibly for the African trade in the mid + 19th century??
Is it 62 - 69 or 75 cal?? smoothbore I presume??.
Its neat.
Lock looks Third Model Bess (India Pattern).
Lots of these made starting about 1800; every apprentice in the country was filing parts for them. There was a huge stockpile when they finally got rid of Boney, lots of them got sold back to the Trade.
After that, who can even guess how many more were built. Conversions to caps started about 1820; I have one that can be positively dated to pre-1822.
I would think likely a trade gun of some sort, but we have to remember that not all of them were sold to aboriginals of one sort or another. There were a lot of poor people here who needed guns and would be hard-put to come up with the 6 or 8 Spanish dollars that one of these would have sold for.
Hope this is some help.
Very nice toy!
Lots of these made starting about 1800; every apprentice in the country was filing parts for them. There was a huge stockpile when they finally got rid of Boney, lots of them got sold back to the Trade.
After that, who can even guess how many more were built. Conversions to caps started about 1820; I have one that can be positively dated to pre-1822.
I would think likely a trade gun of some sort, but we have to remember that not all of them were sold to aboriginals of one sort or another. There were a lot of poor people here who needed guns and would be hard-put to come up with the 6 or 8 Spanish dollars that one of these would have sold for.
Hope this is some help.
Very nice toy!
Weapontech
CGN frequent flyer
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For what it's worth.....
Based on much of the research I've done for another similar inquiry, it definitely falls into the "Trade Gun" category; which can be a rather large & somewhat diverse group. Here's some useless/useful background info that I dug up after my previous research. All of this info pertains to guns available through the North West Company, so it may or may not be relevant to ID'ing your gun.
Look for a makers name, such as Wilson, Sunderland, Wheeler, Barnett, Hollis, Ketland and Parker Field & Son. The majority of these gunmakers are, of course, from London - many came in various barrel lengths and many can be identified by a “serpent” or “dragon” side plate and oversized trigger guard.
Makers initials are generally, but not always stamped under the barrel.
The North West Company guns were marked with a Sitting Fox inside of a circle on the butt stock, lock plate and on top of the barrel near the lock. After HBC and the North West Company merged in 1821 the Hudson's Bay Company used a stylized “Tombstone Fox” cartouche stamped in the lock and on the top flat of the barrel.
The majority of these guns were a .60 caliber smooth bore, and the flintlock ignition versions were manufactured right up until 1875.
Based on much of the research I've done for another similar inquiry, it definitely falls into the "Trade Gun" category; which can be a rather large & somewhat diverse group. Here's some useless/useful background info that I dug up after my previous research. All of this info pertains to guns available through the North West Company, so it may or may not be relevant to ID'ing your gun.
Look for a makers name, such as Wilson, Sunderland, Wheeler, Barnett, Hollis, Ketland and Parker Field & Son. The majority of these gunmakers are, of course, from London - many came in various barrel lengths and many can be identified by a “serpent” or “dragon” side plate and oversized trigger guard.
Makers initials are generally, but not always stamped under the barrel.
The North West Company guns were marked with a Sitting Fox inside of a circle on the butt stock, lock plate and on top of the barrel near the lock. After HBC and the North West Company merged in 1821 the Hudson's Bay Company used a stylized “Tombstone Fox” cartouche stamped in the lock and on the top flat of the barrel.
The majority of these guns were a .60 caliber smooth bore, and the flintlock ignition versions were manufactured right up until 1875.
I would have to echo Tiriaq's thoughts; it has the lines of a classic trade gun but lacks the tombstone fox or circle fox and the serpent side plate of guns made for the Northwest Co and for the Hudson Bay co. If it were either of those, the price would be up around $1500 - $2000 but with out the criteria above, I would put the price about 1/2 that. Some photos of originals for comparison
Almost forgot; your gun has a bridle on the frizzen and I think that is a relatively late feature for trade guns but don't know when bridles were introduced on them.
cheers mooncoon
Almost forgot; your gun has a bridle on the frizzen and I think that is a relatively late feature for trade guns but don't know when bridles were introduced on them.
cheers mooncoon
In a manner of speaking, trade guns were just a specialized type of fowler built for a particular purpose and a specific customer and to a specific pattern. Sort of like TECO 22s and shotguns or Sears guns made in the 1900s.
On that basis I would call it a fowler but at the same time it is so distinctively similar to a "trade gun" as built for the HBC and the NW Co, I would price it higher than a more conventional looking fowler but still less than a gun with the fox and serpent.
cheers mooncoon
The only major challenge was making the lock. I still consider myself fortunate to own it. I have shot it a bit but need to bend the barrel a bit because it shoots about 6" low and 6" to one side right now. I did bend the barrel on another modern smoothbore and it worked quite well. Made a cradle to support the muzzle and another just ahead of the wedding band then curved piece of wood for the top center of the gap so that I could hit the barrel with a hammer. The height of the cradles with or without padding under the center point controls how much the barrel is flexed during the process.
cheers mooncoon
As Mooncoon has pointed out, there were all sorts of guns made for the market.
Many, most, simply got used up. The survival rate for quality guns is higher than for economy ones. A gun like yours in some ways is rarer than a British Best quality.
There were French pattern muskets made in Birmingham for the market - look for all the world like a '63 Charleville.
Many, most, simply got used up. The survival rate for quality guns is higher than for economy ones. A gun like yours in some ways is rarer than a British Best quality.
There were French pattern muskets made in Birmingham for the market - look for all the world like a '63 Charleville.
