Flintlock Pistol--Antique or Fake

M

Mike K.

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North Central Sask.
I have a flintlock pistol that I cannot find any info about. There are no markings on the outside or inside of the lock. The bore is .69 calibre ( a 12 Gauge slug will fit snugly in the end of the barrel). There is a stamp/impression in the underside of the barrel but I cannot tell what it is. There are also a X, 1, 0, on the top of the barrel and similar on the bottom. Don't know if that means anything or not. The hammer spring is still very strong and holds half #### and full #### very well.
There is a brass sleeve with a front sight that was put on but does not belong. It looks good though and has been there for a number of years. There is also a set of dots, numbers, and letters on the pistol grip near the bottom/base of the grip. Maybe issue numbers for Army/Naval ?? To me this piece bears a striking resemblance to the India Pattern Brown Bess but I may be wrong.
When I acquired this piece some 20 or so years ago, it came with a story. It was supposedly found wrapped in an oilskin cloth in the Churchill River in Northern Saskatchewan. Supposedly found in the 1950's. Possibly a H.B. Co, gun or from some other Fur Traders?? Makes for interesting speculation.
Enough nattering. Here are some pics. Any information or opinions appreciated. Thank you.



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Strange there are no proof marks. Mabye a persian or middle eastern gun but it looks in some ways to well made for that. Hard to say. Has some french influence judging by the nose cap.
 
the slash or chopped in marks on the bottom of the barrel are assembly marks and were used because guns were made in small batches or assembled in small batches. Parts were only marginally interchangeable if at all. The deep rectangular stamp on the bottom is probably the barrel maker's mark.

to me the gun looks original although if the barrel has been sleeved, I suspect that was done to repair a badly pitted bore and presumably done in comparatively recent times. Without proof marks, the barrel is not british or belgian but on the broader picture it was not unusual for worn out barrels to be salvaged and used to make handguns. The working life of a brown bess for example was said to be 12 years and I would expect the breach end to still be serviceable. Iron was an extremely expensive commodity until the mid 1800s

cheers mooncoon
 
The fifth picture down shows the underside if the barrel with the brass sleeve/sight removed. It is clear to see that there was a screw that held a different nose cap assembly in place as even the wood is contoured for a proper nose cap and attachment screw. Anybody have any thoughts or comments on the marking on the handgrip. To me that signifies a issue mark or maybe some other type of identification. Looks too neat and clean to have been done by an amateur.
 
I misread and misunderstood your term brass sleeve; I thought you were talking about a liner inside the barrel. Nosecap would probably be a better term for the brass piece. Possibly the original nose cap war replaced with one from a Springfield or Charleville musket, if either used a brass one. I would still go with it being an antique

cheers mooncoon
 
I cannot believe it !!! Have all of the flinters out there gone on holidays ?? Surely someone else has some information. The numbers and letters and dots on the butt must mean something. They look to be too nicely done to be pounded in by a chisel and rock in someone's back yard.
By the way, that is an adult's hand raising the butt off the table. not a child's. Only mentioning it to give a relative idea of the size and heft of this thing.
 
Musketfire said:
Looks like a real antique to me, lock looks eastern European. Its a beauty!
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if the lock was a brown bess lock or an East India lock, there would be prominent stamps on the lock. I think the lock is a generic lock in the bess configuration and probably old. I am not familiar enough with military stamps to know what the numbers and letters mean

cheers mooncoon
 
Looks like a pistol that was built or refurbished using re-used parts from other firearms. It's like building a car using recycled parts from different manufacturers - it can't be identified as a particular model.

Fur traders were operating in the mid 19th century, so if this pistol was found in a river wrapped in an oilcloth in 1950 it would have spent 100+ years in the water. That is some dam good oilcloth. :)
 
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jethunter said:
Looks like a pistol that was built or refurbished using re-used parts from other firearms. It's like building a car using recycled parts from different manufacturers - it can't be identified as a particular model.

Fur traders were operating in the mid 19th century, so if this pistol was found in a river wrapped in an oilcloth in 1950 it would have spent 100+ years in the water. That is some dam good oilcloth. :)
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Makes a good story though. Any ideas about the butt markings?
 
jethunter said:
Looks like a pistol that was built or refurbished using re-used parts from other firearms.
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From a legal standpoint, the barrel and breach plug constitute the frame or receiver of a muzzle loader and for that reason the gun is an antique legally. The degree to which it was assembled from old parts potentially affects its historical and monetary value but is unimportant relative to its legal status. Iron and guns were expensive items in the early to mid 1800's and I don't think it was that uncommon to salvage components to make a complete gun. I know that I have a percussion pistol remade from salvage parts in the 1830s or early 40s

cheers mooncoon
 
It definitely is old/antique. No question there. As you stated previously, the end cap is from a French flintlock rifle as it is identical. Fits and looks good though.
I spent a fair amount of time last night researching and found two Brown Bess Rifles that have the exact same lock (no markings), same trigger guard and same brass piece on the left side of the receiver. One has distinctive barrel markings near the top breech area and the second one had faint markings in the same area ( scrubbed or worn off)?
That is why I am thinking it is British. That is also why I am also thinking it was a Naval or Military pistol. I strongly believe that the butt marks were some issue or regimental numbers. I found a Brown Bess on Google last night that had military marks on the brass trigger guard. The letters and numbers style of stamping were very similar.
 
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Musketfire said:
Pistol butt marks are rack numbers. Who knows what regiment?? I imagine the pistol could be from anywhere between France and the Ottoman empire.
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So if the marks are rack numbers, then they had to have been issued to someone by someone. Can't be the only one in existence then and had to have been made for a specific purpose. Maybe someone else can verify what Musketfire has stated. Anyone ??
 
With what little experience I have, the 'E' might stand for 'Esquadron[e], and the 'N' for 'Navale', making it a French piece, or at least, THAT piece. Brass and navy usually go together for obvious reasons.

tac
 
I was thinking Navy because of the brass also. Do you have any experience with this type of pistol or any ideas as to where to find additional information? Google is quite limited for info. Any leads are appreciated.
 
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