Flintlock stops sparking after 5 shots!!! Another newbie question!!

C

czscotia

Regular
Rating - 100%
42   0   0
Location
Grand Prairie
Hi all
Shooting the lyman flintlock again.
Got 5 great shots off then lost my spark, swapped in a new flint- still no spark.
I noticed it was getting greasy, so does anyone need to clean the Frizzen or flint after a bit.??
Maybe wipe it with alcohol??

Also forgot my vegetable oil so used water on the patches. One time I must have
gotten the patch too wet and it would not go, had to empty out some powder and put new powder in then It went. I was very surprised at how little moisture it took to kill it.
 
This from a muzzleloader forum you may want to check out.

Change over to a Thomas Fuller black english flint and keep it sharp. Also be sure to take some alcohol and wipe the frizzen and face of the flint off from time to time. This will help make the flint throw a longer spark which makes better ignition.

Something else to try...

Keep a fuzzy pipe cleaner with you. When you load, push that into the touch hole and close the frizzen pan on it to hold it there. Then dump your powder, and load your projectile like normal. When you get ready to prime the pan, slowly pull that fuzzy pipe cleaner out of the touch hole. This drags just a small amount of powder under the cone of the touch hole. Be sure the pan, frizzen, and flint are wiped down with an alcohol patch. And some rifles spark and fire better depending on where you put your prime charge. Lymans like the prime charge on the outside of the pan. Thompson Centers do not seem to care. Also some rifles like small amounts of prime, some like a stronger load of primer powder.

All rifles are different as to how much and were they like the primer. Also check your frizzen to see how hard it is. I never shot a Pedersolli so I do not know how well they harden the frizzen. A soft frizzen will not spark as well as one hardened.
 
silverfoxdj said:
This from a muzzleloader forum you may want to check out.
Click to expand...

Definitely good advice. I have found that creating a space in the main powder charge does great things in reducing locktime and increasing reliability of ignition. I personally use the end of a feather (more period correct) but a pipe cleaner should do quite nicely as well. From what I have read this creates a much larger surface for the hot gases from the pan to impact to light the main charge, this gives a faster, more reliable burn.
 
it sounds to me as if your frizzen needs to be recased. I think Lyman guns are made in Italy and they use mild steel frizzens that have been case hardened. In time the casing wears through and has to be redone. In your case if the gun is new, it must not have had a good depth of case hardening. In your case, since the new flint did not spark I am inclined to think the problem is with the frizzen. You or someone with the equipment and knowledge needs to heat the face of the frizzen red hot and put a generous amount of Kasenite on the surface and keep it red hot for at least 3 minutes by the clock then drop it into water. I would then lightly polish the frizzen face bright and reheat until it turns brown and quench again. Three minutes by the clock because 3 minutes is a long time when you are waiting much like a watched kettle never boiling. The carbon from the Kasenite takes time to penetrate into the steel and the suggestion that I have heard is .001" per minute. Don't be afraid to add more as the initial amount burns away. Also wear sun glasses because the Kasenite burns with a bright yellow flame.

I don't agree with the need to clean the frizzen with alcohol; a good lock will spark even with a wet frizzen in my experience. The flint does need to be sharp and you need to learn to knap the flint. I use a 4" long piece of 3/16" brass rod and drive it with my short starter which is mallet shaped. The rod only touches the very edge of the flint and is angled about 45 degrees and should drive a flake off for 3/16 to 1/4 inch. I don't agree with just tapping the edge of the flint with the back of a knife because you have minimal control and often not the correct angle

cheers mooncoon
 
I have solve all my problems by ordering from Track of the wolf some high quality English flint, the last one i have installed on my Kentucky cal 50 have given me 20 shots all ready without a miss..
 
something I forgot to mention; in humid or wet weather, it is prudent to dry the bottom of the pan cover portion of a frizzen. The fouling on it is very hydroscopic and can foul the surface of the priming powder thus no flash

cheers mooncoon
 
Czscotia, I've got a Lyman flintlock too. Unless yours is defective frizzen hardness is NOT an issue. Mine has been reliable and throws good strong spark for a few years now.

I will second the suggestion to order some black english flints from TOTW. I got a couple of dozen some years ago and I'm just about to the point where I need to order more. They really are great flints.

If you're getting oil up onto the frizzen then I'd suggest that you are over oiling the action and exterior parts. By all means oil them but wipe and brush off the excess. It's almost impossible to wipe away all the oil so a casual "drying" will still leave lots to keep the parts from rusting. And wipe off the frizzen face HARD a few times with a clean rag before the first use. Repeat wipe as needed to keep the pan, nose of the flint and the face of the frizzen clean of fouling. But just as importantly if the fouling is anything but dry soot then find out what is coming out and turning it into muck. If it's oil from the action then you are most certainly over oiling and not removing enough of the excess. After washing my actions I put two or at most three drops of oil on a place and then use an old toothbrush to spread those drops all over the action inside and out. Only the pivots in the actual sear and hammer get a very slight extra bit of oil. And the hooks on the hammer wheel where the sear catches get a thin smear of grease.

I guess the next question is what are you using for oil? You mentioned veggie oil for the patches. You're not using that on the lock are you? While very black powder friendly all veggie and nut based oils will "dry" (it's actually a chemical reaction to the oxygen that causes the oil to polymerize) over a long enough time to a varnish like film when exposed to air and sun. And even over a few weeks in the dark tend to thicken and become sticky. You really want to buy and use Ballistol or some other BP friendly lube and protectant. I played with a product called Fluid Film and found that it's BP friendly and also a pretty good lubricant as well. Crappy tire and other places carry it.

The other issue might be that the flint is crashing so hard into the frizzen that it's shattering the nose of the flint. My own Lyman GPR at first needed to have the flint get trimmed up a little after about 12 to 15 shots so I could make it through our usual course of 26 shots. Later on I got another rocklock and found that it easily lasted for the whole course of fire on the one flint and without the need for freshening up the edge by knapping it. During cleaning I felt like the frizzen moved VERY differently on the two actions. This led me to compare them more closely and I ended up slightly altering the frizzen cam on the Lyman's lock so the frizzen moved more like the one on my custom action. Now I get a whole course of fire off the one flint edge. Or near enough that it's just barely needing a touch of knapping at around shot number 24. So I just re-#### a time or two to get it to shoot and not bother with any edge knapping. It's a subtle thing though so if you opt to get this done have it done by someone that knows their flint actions well.

On the custom action the frizzen does not "snap" down onto the pan. Or at least it only snaps down very weakly and right at the end of the closing travel. Once raised up just a hair it has no "snap" at all. There's friction from the frizzen spring of course but the frizzen stays in any position I leave it. On the other hand the GPR frizzen had a strong spring action due to a fairly pronounced point on the cam that rides on the frizzen spring. I slightly reduced and rounded that point by a small amount at a time until it closed on the pan more weakly and was a close match to the feel of the custom tuned action and so that once raised slightly it just sat where left instead of snapping closed or open like it had done.

Not only did this make the flints live longer but it also seems to aid with a more intense spark shower. It takes a lot more crud and abuse before I get any misfires now.

But that's a pretty heavy handed solution. Go with the simpler solutions mentioned first. New/better flints and not over oiling the action.

Oh, and I've had great luck using a mix of Ballistol and water as a patch lube. Keeps the bore easy to load through the whole day. I use 8:1 water:Ballistol and after starting the ball and patch add about 3 to 4 drops worth of this "Moose Milk" mixture to the ruffle of the patch before short starting it in a few more inches then ramming the rest of the way. I use Canol oil on the balls in my BP cap and ball revolvers but I found that this let the bore on my long guns get fouled and crusty. The MM avoids this and I like that the residue from the MM when the water dries away is actually BP friendly oil. The hope is that if I don't get to the cleaning right away it'll keep any bad things occuring for a few additional hours.
 
Thanks for the replys! When I got the gun used the Frizzen had a deepish groove cut by the flint.
And I felt the geometry was off and spring tension was too high as it was smashing the Flints
Little chips were always coming off

So being the expert I am!! I reduced the Frizzen spring tension and the flint coil spring slightly
And rehardned the Frizzen with something called hard and tuff. Similar to kasinite bit its green. I did not temper it however. Maybe I should but it does spark and there are slight lines scratched down the face of it from the flint.

It was very humid - for GP, been raining for weeks. And actually I don't oil the lock but it sure got greasy after about 5 shots.

I will get some Balistol for sure, and wr. Sainsbury on CGN was kind enough to send me some English Flints
That I will try next time. Mine are sawn rock of some kind.
I appreciate the replies.
I clean the barrel with hopes 9 and then
I oiled the barrel lightly after cleaning could that contribute to the grease?

Just remembered the pan is very rough as cast almost, I will polish this up
 
Last edited:
czscotia said:
When I got the gun used the Frizzen had a deepish groove cut by the flint.
And I felt the geometry was off and spring tension was too high as it was smashing the Flints


So being the expert I am!! I reduced the flint coil spring slightly
And rehardned the Frizzen with something called hard and tuff. Similar to kasinite bit its green. I did not temper it however.

I will get some Balistol for sure, and wr. Sainsbury on CGN was kind enough to send me some English Flints
That I will try next time. Mine are sawn rock of some kind.
p
Click to expand...

one thing which will reduce the ability of a lock to spark is ridges or waves in the frizzen face. After many hundreds of shots, a frizzen will develop 2 or 3 horizontal ridges or waves on its face. Those will slow the flint down and reduce its ability to spark. A light grinding on a 6" grinder will smooth those out but you will then have to recase the frizzen unless it is high carbon all the way through.

In terms of recasing, it is not good enough to just add carbon via Kasenite or similar products. The surface also needs to be hard and I drop my frizzens into water while they are red hot, then clean the face and reheat to dark brown

I think it is a mistake to weaken the mainspring; the faster the flint moves, the better it will spark. Smashing the flint edge is much more a question of the angle the flint first strikes at and if the flint is too long, it will hit square on and smash the edge. That can be solved by either knapping the flint shorter or turning the flint bevel up or both depending on the situation. While on the subject, the sawn agate flints can be knapped although they are a bit more difficult to do.

final point is that I am a firm believer in Fluid Film and have used it more or less exclusively for the past 20 years or so

cheers mooncoon
 
With black powder you don't use Hoppes. Go with soapy water instead. Actually you just need water, but the soap in it aids with cutting through any residual oil.

The BP leaves water soluble salts behind along with some soot. It's important to clean away those salts as that is what encourages the rusting which will occur. Hoppes is a good cleaning product for smokeless but that's a whole other chemistry combination than black powder fouling.

My own BP cleaning goes;
  • Remove the flint, unscrew the lock screw from the left side and flip the lock out.
  • Remove barrel wedges and remove barrel from stock.
  • Swish the lock around in the soapy water and with an old toothbrush clean the pan frizzen and all other places. Rinse in hot tap water, dry as well as I can with a towel, blow out the hidden parts of the action, then blow dry with a hair dryer. Oil it all lightly with a couple of drops of Ballistol spread with a second dry "oiling only" tooth brush. A little extra oil in the points mentioned in the reply above..
  • Now clean the barrel. I put the breech end in a bucket and pour the hot soapy water down the muzzle with a cup and keep it wet for a few pours.
  • Next is a nylon bristle brush on a shotgun cleaning rod. Why shotgun? So the handle doesn't turn. Also some manner of muzzle crown protector is nice. Or hold your fingers so the cleaning rod does not contact the muzzle crown rifling. Push the rod and brush in letting the handle turn the little it needs to turn. At the base of the bore the brush won't want to come back out. But give the handle a twist like you're "tightening the threading" while pulling back gently and the bristles will flip around and you can pull it out easily. Do this for a few full length strokes.
  • Re-flush with more poured in water. The stuff coming out the touch hole will look really nasty by this time.
  • From there it's 4 to 8 soapy water patches on a good fitting bore jag to clean away the last of the black residue. And for our Lymans you'll want a .357 caliber bore brush to go down and clean out the powder chamber which is of a reduced size. You'll need to wad up a patch over the end of the brush then fold a patch over that to hold it in place and run that down and give it a good half dozen twists. This is a bit of a messy kludge but it's the only way I can find to clean right to the rear of the powder chamber really well.
  • After all that little or no black should be coming out. Time to dry the bore and powder chamber with a couple of more patches used in the same way as for cleaning.
  • Lightly oil the bore and powder chamber with the same cleaning trick but with LIGHTLY oiled patch so it oils the whole area and does not leave much. If in doubt oil a touch more generously and then dry patch the chamber to remove any excess. And a regularly oiled patch for the bore. Use Balistol for this too. Not regular gun oil as BP will form a hard sticky fouling mess on contact with BP fouling.
  • A damp rag is then used to clean around the lock area of the stock to remove any fouling spatter.
  • Now it's time to put it all back together.

Looks like a lot. But it goes rapidly. If really need to get it done in a rush I can do the whole process in around 15 minutes. Usually I take my time and it's more like 20 to 25 easy going minutes while listening to tunes.

On the flints crashing into the frizzen that's what I had happening too. About 3/4's up the face, right? After my mod described above to reduce the camming and a slight bit of smoothing out that "ditch" I'm finding that the wear is far more even down the whole face. It's not the spring itself that is to blame though. It's the shape of the heel/cam on the frizzen that rides on the spring. If you are shop savvy you COULD do it yourself. The trouble is you don't have any example to work with to see if your progress is good or not. Ask around in the local black powder community and see if there is anyone there that is good at tuning up the locks in this aspect.

Very little metal needs to be removed to accomplish this mod. When I did mine I used a Cratex rubberized polishing abrasive wheel with my Dremel. These are usually used for giving the surface a nice shiny final finish and don't remove metal very fast at all. Which is why I used this option over a sanding or grinding wheel which would have removed too much metal faster than I could say "oops".

If you modified the frizzen spring to give a lighter spring action though then likely it's not reversible. And that means you won't have enough tension to work with the modified frizzen heel. I think you're looking at a new frizzen spring before you can do the frizzen heel cam fix.
 
Mooncoon, I did quench the Frizzen, I just did not reheat it to some lower temp to draw out some of the hardness. Sometimes my typing (or proofreading) isn't the best.
Also I should have typed that I did not harm the Frizzen spring but did as you suggest and lowered the resistance by stoning material off the lobe so it opens easier.
Thanks for the cleaning advice, I will follow this next time. Force of habit to get the hoppes Out!

Also for the .357 brush idea, I was wondering how to clean this spot effectively.
 
I never touch my frizzen springs, I usually remove a little off the nub that presses against the spring with a stone.
 
Good to read that you only did the lobe.

Just to be sure I was describing things correctly I just double checked just what my own frizzen is moving like.

Lifting it off the pan it will hold its position wherever I leave it up to around 30° where it snaps fully open. On closing I have to push it down to roughly that same angle before it will stay in the one spot. From there it stays in position wherever I leave it right down to actually touching the pan. So it is only friction of the lobe against the spring that keeps it in contact.

Now I'd be the first to say that this might be a little extreme. And I may have gotten a touch carried away. But that's how it came out and I tried it thinking that I'd likely need to shift the shape slightly to get SOME close down pressure on the pan. But in practice it's working like a champ. My Lyman now gets roughly the same life out of the flint as my fancy smokepole that has the custom tuned lock.

Hope that helps you enjoy your own GPR as much as I like mine.....

The custom lock is a whole other critter. It has a roller wheel on the end of the frizzen spring that rides against the cam of the frizzen. So while it's very quick to snap the frizzen either closed or fully open with only a short range of "stays put" in the travel the force needed to lift the frizzen is very low and the pressure remains low for the whole rubbing stroke up to where it snaps open and away from the flint. It's that very light force that led me to modify the strong action of the GPR. And I've been very happy with the result.

Tula, sounds like my "Great Discovery" is far from unknown since you're doing the same thing? Seems like it's a bit of flintlock lore that just escaped me.
 
a good lock should spark without a frizzen spring. The purpose of the spring is to keep the pan covered while you are hunting. Having said that, many original locks, particularly bess locks had enormously strong frizzen springs and main springs

cheers mooncoon
 
Mooncoon, that's essentially what my GPR is doing now. The heel against the spring is providing simple frictional resistance with no actual springiness to the motion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom