FMJ Ammunition
- Thread starter gyates93
- Start date
Daehanminkuk
Regular
- Location
- Seodaemun-gu, Seoul, ROK
FMJ is legal out of any rifle pistol whatever.
FMJ doesn't mean AP.
..BTW I am just a little shocked anyone would jump to this conclusion.
bullpup assault weapon... hah !! OMG...
BTW, AP isn't prohibited as long as it isn't used in a pistol. hence 5.7 ammo issue.
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You the student have the right and obligation to report this instructor to the Firearm education service of you province. Wrong information being passed to students reflects badly on the rest of us, Anyone can make a mistake but multiple ones, and then not being willing to check when questions is inexcusable!!!
Supermag
Supermag
Here is the truth from the Department of Justice web site and the link if you need to show that fool what the law really says.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cr/SOR-98-462/bo-ga:s_1::bo-ga:s_2?page=2
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cr/SOR-98-462/bo-ga:s_1::bo-ga:s_2?page=2
Well, I have to give him some credit, he has apparently 'looked into it'.
(The Magazine question which I find most important, as most people who will buy FMJ KNOW that it's legal.)
His email response:
Hi Gerald;
I wanted to get clarification on both Federal and Provincial regs to let you know the exact ruling. When it refers to magazine capacity, the general rule is that no center fire long gun will hold more than 5 rounds with the exception of the M1 Grande and the Lee Enfield which can have a 10 round clip. The exact ruling is that no rifle magazine can be altered from its original manufacture specs. If it was manufactured with a 3 or 5 round clip, you can not use a larger magazine. Other exceptions to the law is for rifle ranges. When used on a rifle range, even a shotgun can have the plug removed to allow for more ammo. the website does say all other long guns, but in fact there are numerous exceptions and restrictions depending on the caliber and make of long guns and it is up to the owner to ensure the legal limits of their magazine capacity. It is for this reason that the our instructor packages teach the general rule to limit the confusion. I have suggested to the CFAS that they change their website to refer info for all center fire long guns to be more accurate. I checked on other websites like the National Firearms association, and this same question is a problem country wide especially when it comes to older and more obscure guns. Excellent job in standing to your opinion and hopefully because of you the federal and provincial hunting regs will more accurate.
This is still incorrect, but is getting closer.. However, I've sent an email off to the CFC, and I am going to forward it to him. Appears that he's trying to bend the regulations to his views, though.
EDIT: Plus, if it were reported and he was prevented from teaching the course, those of us in Central Newfoundland who want to take the Non-Restricted firearms course may not be able to take it. Is this a valid concern?
Ganderite: PLEASE, come home! You can live with me if you like!
dangertree
Business Rep
- Location
- NL/ON/FL/PL
$5 says he is confusing the provincial hunting regulations (which states no use FMJ, expanding ammo only), with the Criminal Code.
Oh, that's exactly what he's doing, I owe you 5.
He said during the FIREARMS part of the course that you cannot take 'service ammunition' into the woods, therefore it is 100% illegal to own.
EDIT: OHH! AND he said that ALL POINTED ammunition was FMJ, and illegal, thus, he didn't cover the question of pointed bullets in lever actions, because we're not allowed to have pointed rounds anyway.
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This does NOT refer to all centerfire long guns - only semis. Bolts do NOT have this restriction, nor do lever or pump actions. Oh and GARANDs have an 8 round capacity not 10.
WHICH is it? Rifle designed to use a 3???(half-moon for revolver?) or 5 round clip (with internal magazine), in which case it doesn't use an external magazine or a rifle designed to use magazines, in which case it was NOT designed with a fixed internal 3 or 5 round magazine...
...or designed to use 3??? or 5 round stripperclips to charge external magazines??...
...BAH!, I give up, I'm not even going to try to decipher the rest of the BS this guy wrote to you...
...How the hell someone with that little knowledge of firearms is allowed to teach others about this subject is anyone's guess...
...he sounds full of sh*t to me.
IMO, guys like that are one reason that less people attempt to get into shooting sports. I didn't get a license until my mid twenties because I stupidly listened to an idiot like this guy who told me that it is almost impossible to get a license to own a handgun or a semiauto rifle - I was told you have to have a "good" reason like being a security guard or police officer - at the time I didn't have access to the internet to easily find the truth for myself.
I guess some people get a kick out of trying to convince others that they are more knowledgeable than they actually are.
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It looks like he did not note that the magazine rule applies only to centre fire semi and full autos. Does not apply to bolts and pumps. The Garand is an exception because it uses a 8 round clip. The Lee Enfield is mentioned because there is/was some kind of semi/fullauto that used the Enfield magazine and they did not want to make the Enfield magazine a prohibited device.
I was one of the original editors of the first draft of the FAC book. I should have kept a copy. What a POS. It said the 303 Brit was a 30 cal introduced in 1903. I wrote a report showing 50 specific inaccuracies. Five years later I got a report back that they had researched and had been able to confirm that 24 of them were correct but could not verify the rest.
They were proud that the writers of the course knew nothing about guns. Felt this would prevent "prejudice".
The first book, which was used for many years, showed the muzzle loader ramrod with the loaded/unloaded rings drawn on the wrong end of the rod.
Think of a Remington 1100 shotgun or a Mauser C96 pistol and note that the approved way to load a semi-auto is to load the magazine and then look down the barrel to make sure it is not obstructed. That may still be there.
My biggest complaint was that the course did not teach how to check a firearm to see if it is loaded. I wrote a paragraph on this which made it into the second edition. One of the "facts" they were able to confirm, I guess. My suggestion was to look for an empty chamber and the magazine follower. On a pump this is critical, since rounds can hang up in a dented tube.
I was one of the original editors of the first draft of the FAC book. I should have kept a copy. What a POS. It said the 303 Brit was a 30 cal introduced in 1903. I wrote a report showing 50 specific inaccuracies. Five years later I got a report back that they had researched and had been able to confirm that 24 of them were correct but could not verify the rest.
They were proud that the writers of the course knew nothing about guns. Felt this would prevent "prejudice".
The first book, which was used for many years, showed the muzzle loader ramrod with the loaded/unloaded rings drawn on the wrong end of the rod.
Think of a Remington 1100 shotgun or a Mauser C96 pistol and note that the approved way to load a semi-auto is to load the magazine and then look down the barrel to make sure it is not obstructed. That may still be there.
My biggest complaint was that the course did not teach how to check a firearm to see if it is loaded. I wrote a paragraph on this which made it into the second edition. One of the "facts" they were able to confirm, I guess. My suggestion was to look for an empty chamber and the magazine follower. On a pump this is critical, since rounds can hang up in a dented tube.
i cant belive the instructor was that stupid every serious shooter most likely has some FMJ ammo espeically with handguns....
however my instructer (when looking at an overhead of different bullet types) told me hollow point ammo was stictly prohibited in canada after i asked why hollow point wasent shown on the table. meh shows that not everyone is perfect....
he told us in the course that you need to kno the laws becasue someone he knew was pulled over with some non-resticteds in his car on the way back from hunting and the police tried to chage him because the guns wernt tirgger locked in a locked case and the ammunition wasnet locked up seperatly....which of course is not a legal requirerment.....
however my instructer (when looking at an overhead of different bullet types) told me hollow point ammo was stictly prohibited in canada after i asked why hollow point wasent shown on the table. meh shows that not everyone is perfect....
he told us in the course that you need to kno the laws becasue someone he knew was pulled over with some non-resticteds in his car on the way back from hunting and the police tried to chage him because the guns wernt tirgger locked in a locked case and the ammunition wasnet locked up seperatly....which of course is not a legal requirerment.....
My email to him (With some copy-and-paste from CGN):
From the CRIMINAL CODE OF CANADA:
Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited or Restricted
SOR/98-462
Part 4
3. (1) Any cartridge magazine
(a) that is capable of containing more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in
(i) a semi-automatic handgun that is not commonly available in Canada,
(ii) a semi-automatic firearm other than a semi-automatic handgun,
(iii) an automatic firearm whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger,
(iv) the firearms of the designs commonly known as the Ingram M10 and M11 pistols, and any variants or modified versions of them, including the Cobray M10 and M11 pistols, the RPB M10, M11 and SM11 pistols and the SWD M10, M11, SM10 and SM11 pistols,
(v) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Partisan Avenger Auto Pistol, and any variant or modified version of it, or
(vi) the firearm of the design commonly known as the UZI pistol, and any variant or modified version of it, including the Micro-UZI pistol; or
(b) that is capable of containing more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada.
(2) Paragraph (1)(a) does not include any cartridge magazine that
(a) was originally designed or manufactured for use in a firearm that
(i) is chambered for, or designed to use, rimfire cartridges,
(ii) is a rifle of the type commonly known as the "Lee Enfield" rifle, where the magazine is capable of containing not more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed, or
(iii) is commonly known as the U.S. Rifle M1 (Garand) including the Beretta M1 Garand rifle, the Breda M1 Garand rifle and the Springfield Armoury M1 Garand rifle;
This section of CANADA's EXACT CRIMINAL CODE (not so clearly) states that there is NO size limit for centrefire long guns, except for those of semi-automatics.
As with the full metal jacket ammo issue,(Legal to OWN and to SHOOT, but not to use for HUNTING) some Firearm instructors started by teaching hunting courses, so have the habit of mixing hunting and firearms law together, incorrectly.
Another source of confusion is the bizarre legal language the federal laws use. An example of this is the case of the Lee-Enfield magazine. It is a 10 rounder. As it is used in a bolt action, there are NO size limits. However, during WW2, there was a training gun made from old Lee-Enfields converted to Full-Auto fire (it can be done, but it was a pig-ugly contraption).
http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2084
Consequently, the laws make a specific exemption for the L-E mag, even though it is not neccesary to do so, as the mag was designed for the bolt action L-E rifle.
Rimfire rifle magazines = no limits
Magazines designed for centerfire or rimfire pistols = 10 rounds
Magazines designed for centerfire bolt/pump/lever firearms = no limit.
Magazines designed for centerfire semi-automatic rifles = 5 rounds
Three Canadian examples of FMJ Ammunition (Military and Civilian):
http://www.sirmailorder.ca/show_pro...12&PHPSESSID=4a4b4af3edfdbba848a07966e4ac8c86
http://www.sirmailorder.ca/show_pro...00&PHPSESSID=4a4b4af3edfdbba848a07966e4ac8c86
http://www.marstar.ca/ammo-etc/am-rifle.shtm Note first four, FMJ Ball.
Hopefully this clears up the whole magazine capacity issue, along with the FMJ ammunition issue. If you'd like to learn more about the technical side of the firearms issue (as you are a hunter, and that appears to be your interest - no offense intended.) the online discussion board www.canadiangunnutz.com is an excellent resource with tonnes upon tonnes of information.
From the CRIMINAL CODE OF CANADA:
Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited or Restricted
SOR/98-462
Part 4
3. (1) Any cartridge magazine
(a) that is capable of containing more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in
(i) a semi-automatic handgun that is not commonly available in Canada,
(ii) a semi-automatic firearm other than a semi-automatic handgun,
(iii) an automatic firearm whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger,
(iv) the firearms of the designs commonly known as the Ingram M10 and M11 pistols, and any variants or modified versions of them, including the Cobray M10 and M11 pistols, the RPB M10, M11 and SM11 pistols and the SWD M10, M11, SM10 and SM11 pistols,
(v) the firearm of the design commonly known as the Partisan Avenger Auto Pistol, and any variant or modified version of it, or
(vi) the firearm of the design commonly known as the UZI pistol, and any variant or modified version of it, including the Micro-UZI pistol; or
(b) that is capable of containing more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed and that is designed or manufactured for use in a semi-automatic handgun that is commonly available in Canada.
(2) Paragraph (1)(a) does not include any cartridge magazine that
(a) was originally designed or manufactured for use in a firearm that
(i) is chambered for, or designed to use, rimfire cartridges,
(ii) is a rifle of the type commonly known as the "Lee Enfield" rifle, where the magazine is capable of containing not more than 10 cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed, or
(iii) is commonly known as the U.S. Rifle M1 (Garand) including the Beretta M1 Garand rifle, the Breda M1 Garand rifle and the Springfield Armoury M1 Garand rifle;
This section of CANADA's EXACT CRIMINAL CODE (not so clearly) states that there is NO size limit for centrefire long guns, except for those of semi-automatics.
As with the full metal jacket ammo issue,(Legal to OWN and to SHOOT, but not to use for HUNTING) some Firearm instructors started by teaching hunting courses, so have the habit of mixing hunting and firearms law together, incorrectly.
Another source of confusion is the bizarre legal language the federal laws use. An example of this is the case of the Lee-Enfield magazine. It is a 10 rounder. As it is used in a bolt action, there are NO size limits. However, during WW2, there was a training gun made from old Lee-Enfields converted to Full-Auto fire (it can be done, but it was a pig-ugly contraption).
http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2084
Consequently, the laws make a specific exemption for the L-E mag, even though it is not neccesary to do so, as the mag was designed for the bolt action L-E rifle.
Rimfire rifle magazines = no limits
Magazines designed for centerfire or rimfire pistols = 10 rounds
Magazines designed for centerfire bolt/pump/lever firearms = no limit.
Magazines designed for centerfire semi-automatic rifles = 5 rounds
Three Canadian examples of FMJ Ammunition (Military and Civilian):
http://www.sirmailorder.ca/show_pro...12&PHPSESSID=4a4b4af3edfdbba848a07966e4ac8c86
http://www.sirmailorder.ca/show_pro...00&PHPSESSID=4a4b4af3edfdbba848a07966e4ac8c86
http://www.marstar.ca/ammo-etc/am-rifle.shtm Note first four, FMJ Ball.
Hopefully this clears up the whole magazine capacity issue, along with the FMJ ammunition issue. If you'd like to learn more about the technical side of the firearms issue (as you are a hunter, and that appears to be your interest - no offense intended.) the online discussion board www.canadiangunnutz.com is an excellent resource with tonnes upon tonnes of information.
