FMJ vs hardcast for hunting

ben hunchak

ben hunchak

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Most folks on this site discourage any thought of anyone using FMJ bullets for hunting big game, yet they recommend using very hard (BHN 25) cast bullets for hunting that same big game. I submit that they are the same thing, with an edge to the FMJ because unlike the very hard cast, they will not shatter but penetrate further. My testing and research points out that BHN 20 is the max. for some expansion and anything harder is in FMJ/brittle range. In fact the best results that I have found as far as expansion is with the very heavy, long, relatively soft alloy cast bullets, fired at moderate velocities. Raise the velocity and/or the bullet hardness, and results start to fall off as you move away from a nice"double the caliber" mushroom.
 
Most people that would use FMJ's for hunting would utilise pointed bullets that cause relatively little tissue damage. For instance a .308/7.62 slug comes to a pencil point which will create a wound that while deep is extremely narrow, I would estimate smaller than .308 in diameter. If a blunt bullet design was employed with wide meplat of say .290 or whatever you would create a would theoretically of at leat that size.

If we move to larger rifles or handguns say .44+ then there is little difference between a super hard cast and a semi-wadcutter or Keith bullet of the same shape but of a solid or FMJ construction.

I think most of the condemnation of FMJ's arises from the fact that it is military style FMJ's that would most likely be used, when you get up to a size where solids begin to take on and effective shape the rifles become to big for sensible use on 98% of game. Most FMJ's in the larger caliber where the diameter exists for good wound diameters are only available in round nosed persuasion which while causing a wider diameter wound path than pointed FMJ's would still be more susceptible to wound closure, there are exceptions.
 
I've also seen that the bigger "blunt" styles begin mushrooming much more positively when they are soft enough to expand. As an example take a 30/30 bullet that is hardcast at BHN 25, and compare it's performance on game with a .30 cal. FMJ, with no expansion, I see no difference. With the bigger bores, I prefer to see a nice mushroom on game then none at all.
 
As I have recently admitted to you Ben, I am not very experienced as far as hardness goes in the casting of lead bullets. I have always just shot what was available at the time(store bought bulk lead bullets), shot what was given to me from friends or bulk bullets acquired in gun deals. The ones I have shot for years in .452 are now no longer available and I am curious on the topic, I guess as I should have been long ago. I have done a few of my own(.41 cal) in the past, but the experience was short lived.

Could you please give a rundown on hardness of cast lead bullets. How it is determined and what is best and when. I have an idea on the last part but would like to hear from your experience.

I don't want to steer your thread in the wrong direction so PM me if it will keep this thread going in the right direction.
 
Maybe a bit off topic but while we are it Ill throw in some observations about match bullets and penetration/energy transfer .

I put some 12" long 3x5" pressure treated blocks sitting on the target stand at the range and tried to shoot them off with 53 gr. .224 match bullets (hornady). They basically acted in the same manner as an FMJ and didnt' even knock them off the 2x4 ! Tiny whole in and a bit more of a mess on exit . (fired at about 3500pfs and impact at 100 yards) . I would of though that they would of transfered enough energy to knock off as the wind would usually be able to do that on its own.

A lot more fun knocking them off with the 45-70 !
 
Funny, innit, that the standard for African dangerous game animals is a full metal jacket bullet out of a large caliber rifle, yet the same bullets are not legal to use here. I know, apples/oranges thing.

Seen enough decent looking soft point bullets come out of the berm to say that all that proves, is that the target berm is a poor test medium to be qualifying a bullet as good or bad for hunting.

Cheers
Trev
 
Turkeyslayer 1300 said:
For instance a .308/7.62 slug comes to a pencil point which will create a wound that while deep is extremely narrow, I would estimate smaller than .308 in diameter.
Click to expand...

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hydraulic shock from a bullet travelling faster than the speed if sound is going to produce a shock wave in surrounding tissue causing massive contusive damage. Even though the actual wound is quite small, the vascular structures destroyed in the surrounding tissues contribute significantly to blood loss.

Tumbling is also going to contribute to a larger wound channel.

Back to the question though, hard cast is going to fragment when it gets into tissue. The fragments don't have regular shape and will yaw accordingly, significantly widening the wound channel (more surface area) and increasing the chances of trauma to a major organ.

In Africa, solids and non-expanding bullets are used because an expanding bullet wouldn't penetrate the hide of a lot of African criters deeply enough to reach vitals. That's also why there are minimum calibers. If the bullet isn't going to expand, it's important to use a projectile large enough in the first place.
 
trevj said:
Funny, innit, that the standard for African dangerous game animals is a full metal jacket bullet out of a large caliber rifle, yet the same bullets are not legal to use here. I know, apples/oranges thing.

Seen enough decent looking soft point bullets come out of the berm to say that all that proves, is that the target berm is a poor test medium to be qualifying a bullet as good or bad for hunting.

Cheers
Trev
Click to expand...

Bullets do not really expand in sand. Sand is relatively incompressible.
 
There's certainly enough images of wound channels created by FMJ bullets available. Wounds are far from being restricted to bullet diameter. I have shot a fare amount of hard cast bullets and would have to conclude it takes a lot to get them to deform much, especially at the lower velocities they are fired.
 
crazy_davey said:
... Could [Ben] please give a rundown on hardness of cast lead bullets. How it is determined and what is best and when. I have an idea on the last part but would like to hear from your experience.

I don't want to steer your thread in the wrong direction...
Click to expand...

Actually I too would like to hear the answer to this as well. I think it would add quite a bit of good knowledge to this thread.

My understanding is that it is the meplat size that creates a decent wound channel. That being said though, I too came to the conlusion that a hardcast lead boolit is essentially the same as an FMJ in that both of them don't expand. That's why I never bought into the Garrett hammerhead hardcast nonsense for the 45-70. They like to expound on how much their bullet penetrates: well no kidding, compared to a softnose expanding cup and core bullet, that would tend to make sense.

I do believe though that a wide meplat hardcast will cause a larger wound channel than a spitzer FMJ copper bullet. I admit I don't know the science behind that however.
 
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