FN-98 3 pos safety question

[SuperCub]

I recently had this Dakota 3 pos. safety installed on a FN-98 rifle by a competent gun builder. This is the 1st time I've used a safety like this with no experience with any other similar product. I've always used 700s and am far more used to that rifle.

The same safety in the "Safe" position.

"Fire" position.

I'm not crazy about where the safety lever is in the "Safe" position. I think it would be quite easy to inadvertently move it to "Fire" given it's position esp if the rifle is slinged over my shoulder.

Question .... Are other aftermarket 3pos 98 safeties the same or are others different in this respect?

 

[Hitzy]

Those are pretty much the same as a Winchester M70, not much alternative if you don't like that style other then the vertical type from Timney/Dayton/PH.

 

[SuperCub]

Those are pretty much the same as a Winchester M70, not much alternative if you don't like that style other then the vertical type from Timney/Dayton/PH.

I won't be changing it out.

I used that rifle last year in NL for moose hunting. I just carried it with an empty chamber for safety sake and this works fine for that type of hunting. This year, I used the rifle for deer hunting and became more aware of that safety position, but I tend to carry a rifle more than sling it so it's easier in that scenario to monitor the safety.

While not as nice, the original safety below is probably a better idea as it tucks the safety up and out of the way under the scope in the "Safe" position and thus less vulnerable to accidental movement.

 

[Potashminer]

Your picture in post #3 is not an "original" military safety, although that bolt shroud looks to be original military. When on the left side like that, I think was offered that way by FN and by Parker Hale on some of their sporter rifles as a way to get a "On/Off" safety function on a Mauser, with a Low mounted scope. I think companies like Dayton Triaster and others made a similar "up/down" that went on the right side of the shroud - requires a slot to be cut, usually. The very left side of your picture suggests a commercial action - likely FN - so for sure that "Up/Down" type safety is to be expected there.

To be fair, as shown, that safety lever is in its "Fire" position - swings up and sticks out to the left when in "Safe" position. In your installation without a scope, is not much difference for possibility to get "bumped" to Fire.

I installed a Dakota and a similar Gentry onto two mausers here - as was mentioned, seems absolute identical function to the Model 70 Winchesters that I used. I do prefer one with that "middle" position - function is similar to the military one - allows guts of bolt to be removed for cleaning or inspection with fingers only - no tools or pins needed at all.

 

[can14]

Try a 98k sniper rifle safety copy
Made for using scopes

 

[SuperCub]

Your picture in post #3 is not an "original" military safety, although that bolt shroud looks to be original military. When on the left side like that, I think was offered that way by FN and by Parker Hale on some of their sporter rifles as a way to get a "On/Off" safety function on a Mauser, with a Low mounted scope. I think companies like Dayton Triaster and others made a similar "up/down" that went on the right side of the shroud - requires a slot to be cut, usually. The very left side of your picture suggests a commercial action - likely FN - so for sure that "Up/Down" type safety is to be expected there.

To be fair, as shown, that safety lever is in its "Fire" position - swings up and sticks out to the left when in "Safe" position. In your installation without a scope, is not much difference for possibility to get "bumped" to Fire.

I installed a Dakota and a similar Gentry onto two mausers here - as was mentioned, seems absolute identical function to the Model 70 Winchesters that I used. I do prefer one with that "middle" position - function is similar to the military one - allows guts of bolt to be removed for cleaning or inspection with fingers only - no tools or pins needed at all.

Hey Nelson ....

You're right about pic #3 as not being an original military safety. It is similar to the safety/shroud I took off a JC Higgins FN-98 and replaced with the safety in question.

I'm not familiar with other Winchester type safeties and where they sit in the "safe" position. I am ok with the safety as is but will require a bit of getting used to. It will be a better safety in a way to the 700 safety as it blocks the hammer instead of blocking the trigger.

 

[tiriaq]

A Winchester 3 position safety has these three positions: Forward to fire, bolt can be cycled; halfway back, cocking piece off sear, won't fire, bolt can be cycled; all the way back, won't fire, bolt locked closed.
The halfway position is to allow the bolt to be cycled, or the rifle unloaded while "safe". The safe for carrying position is all the way back.
That Dakota safety does not rotate as far back as any Winchester safety would do. In a Winchester, the paddle is rotated a lot further, and is not likely to snag.
The timing of the safety should be a bit different.

 

[Potashminer]

Hey Nelson ....

You're right about pic #3 as not being an original military safety. It is similar to the safety/shroud I took off a JC Higgins FN-98 and replaced with the safety in question.

I'm not familiar with other Winchester type safeties and where they sit in the "safe" position. I am ok with the safety as is but will require a bit of getting used to. It will be a better safety in a way to the 700 safety as it blocks the hammer instead of blocking the trigger.

Hey, Paul - you might be on to something! Should be two pictures below - each with words above.

Should be that Dakota (EDIT - is NOT Dakota - is Gentry) on a Zastava Mauser - is noticeably stuck out more, than I had noticed on the Winchester Model 70's - all shown are fully to rear in "safe" and "bolt locked" position.



Two Winchester Model 70's - hope that you can see angle of safety levers - top one is from 1955 in 30-06; lower one is mid-1980's "push feed" in 338 Win Mag.

 

[Potashminer]

And, of course I screwed up - that first picture is showing the Dakota (EDIT - is NOT Dakota - is a Gentry) Safety in the middle position - on safe, but bolt not locked.

This is what it looks like when fully to the rear - not very different at all to the Winchesters:

 

[Potashminer]

Just a thought - as shown in your first picture - is that fully back to rear position?? I know I have issues with this rifle - why I do not use it - needs the bolt to be timed - have to lift the handle slightly, for lugs to be fully aligned - is how the slot was cut for the Gentry's lock pin - so I have to jiggle the bolt handle to get safety to go fully to rear. This bolt is not original to this rifle, and it "over clocks".

How they work - as I recall - from Fire position to middle position - a cam along that lever shaft has lifted the cocking piece slightly off the trigger sear - and stays there, when lever continued onto rear position - so trigger sear can not release the cocking piece in middle or rear position of safety lever. So gun is on "Safe" for middle and rear safety lever position - cocking piece being held back by the safety's cam, not by the trigger sear.

From middle position to rear position, a pin is pushed forward inside that shroud - must engage into a new "half moon" or "U" shaped slot that was cut or ground onto rear face top surface of the bolt body. That pin locks the shroud to the bolt body - prevents the bolt body from rotating. If shroud and bolt body not precisely lined up, then that pin can not enter or fully enter that groove, and prevents the safety lever from coming all the way back. So when safety lever is fully or partially to the rear - from that middle position - the safety is "On", and the bolt is locked shut until or unless that pin shears off. As described by Tiriaq in Post #7 above. My recollection is that both the Gentry and the Dakota 3 position safety worked and installed about the same.

I think I remembered that correctly.

I recently read Jim Corbett's account hunting "man eater" tigers in India - snuck within 15 or so feet of a sleeping tiger before he could see vitals - was within reach of the thing if it swapped end for end - needed a very "QUIET" release or else tiger was gone or he was dead - depended which way the awakening tiger chose to go - he aimed, pulled trigger, then fired the rifle by releasing the safety - he wrote that he knew there was a "click" when safety was released - did not think he would have enough time after that "click", to then pull the trigger. Cajones, man!!! BIG brass ones!!!

 

[conor_90]

What is that peep sight and is it integrated to the base?

 

[Potashminer]

The peep sight is a Redfield - an old type - is drilled and tapped (like #2-56 or #3-56 - very tiny screws) into rear face of the Weaver scope base - lays out flat to rear when a scope ring installed - can be flipped up when the scope is removed. As I wanted it, simply a "something" zero'd at say 50 or 75 yards, for when the scope dies. Another issue for that rifle - front sight - so far as I am concerned Zastava used a very mickey-mouse attachment underneath that front sight ramp - is not drilled and tapped into barrel, despite what it looks like from outside - not a lot, other than good thoughts, keeping it there - I want to make or buy a banded front sight ramp to install - something that will not go flying off into bush when fired.

 

[conor_90]

Must be a bit of a chore to drill and tap the scope bases. Guessing this is your 458? Seems to be handling the recoil well.

 

[Potashminer]

Yes, is my 458 Win Mag. I have never fired it yet with full house loads - some reduced loads, 400 grain cast bullets, is all. Is fussy for old guy me to see and mark out and align those little slot places on rear of that sight onto rear of a Weaver base. I think it was held in an X-Y vise on my drill press to get positioning just so. Drilling correct size hole and tapping into that aluminum did not seem such a thing - I did that with drill and then hand turned the tap held in the drill press chuck - too "wobbly" these days to free hand tap a hole that small, if I ever could have.

Hopefully two pictures. First one from the rear with peep flipped up - can see the little mounting screws: Gotta use imagination a bit - not as focused on that peep sight as I had hoped - is a third very small screw at bottom of peep that allows a small amount of windage adjustment for that aperture. Elevation is dealt with by the slots on left and right side of the base. Pretty much, but not completely, down all the way as shown.



Second one - what it looks like when laid down against little spring inside the hinge.

 

[Francois_]

I guess the 3 position safety on Browning/FN Safaris is quite more ergonomic

 

[SuperCub]

View attachment 540025

I like how that safety is closer to the bolt shroud than mine.

 

[Brno8x57]

I have a FN and a Win Model 70 Fwt both in 30-06 as my go to hunting rifles. I much prefer the 3 position safety on the M70, especially when the rifle is wearing a scope. The FN wing safety tucks in very closely to the left side of scope eye piece and is not easy or convenient to move into the Fire position. The M70 safety is nicely located below the scope eye piece and where my right thumb can quickly and easily push it straight forward to the Fire position.

Also have a few other Mauser action rifles by Brno and Husqvarna. Same issue as the FN with the safety when the rifle is scoped. It is just plain inconvenient, time consuming and awkward to disengage the safety.

 

[Potashminer]

(EDIT - as per later posts and PM's to OP, is a Gentry shown in the picture, not a Dakota - not the same lever angle, at all!!!)

I have grand total experience of that one Dakota install. Plus one Gentry install. So thinking why would be different between your picture and mine - is that pin? - if that pin is prevented from going forward by the size the hole/groove or misaligned hole/groove ground onto your bolt top surface, rear face, then safety lever can not come back all the way. I am sure that you are investigating that. Easiest might be to pull bolt and remove that shroud - does safety lever go all the way back with nothing on shroud? - if so, than something in the installation is interfering?? Same result, like mine, if "jiggling" bolt handle slightly up/down all of a sudden lets the safety lever come all the way back??

 

[Potashminer]

...
Also have a few other Mauser action rifles by Brno and Husqvarna. Same issue as the FN with the safety when the rifle is scoped. It is just plain inconvenient, time consuming and awkward to disengage the safety.

Is a thing I noticed among some writers - Dr. Don Heath, for example - "Ganyana" - I think he trained and grew up with Lee Enfield rifles - safety on left side, to be operated with thumb, as thumb fell to shooting grip. At least one part of an article, he was quite adamant that the left side rear of bolt is where a safety "belonged" on a right hand bolt action rifle - not on the right side of the bolt. What you get used to? I do not recall reading the issue in Finn Aargaard's writings, and he appears best known for his use of Model 70 Winchester 375 H&H, I think, although considerably adept with the Mauser, as well. They both were.

If I followed his explanation, Heath was saying that with the right handed shooting grip, dropping the left side safety placed the shooting hand thumb in the shooting grip position. Pushing a right side safety forward, on the right side, then required that thumb to be swung around rear of the bolt to grip the stock. I suspect the odd time that Heath was in a situation where that little bit extra time made the difference between living and dying, he thought? Besides the dangerous game hunting and guiding, I note that Heath spent considerable time getting shot at by various poachers or "freedom fighters" - so maybe some of that thinking is related to surviving an ambush or a fire fight - I have no personal experience at that, at all.

 

[SuperCub]

I emailed Chris Griesbach concerning that safety and he replied that there is nothing that can be done to correct it. He built the rifle including installing the safety.

I'm thinking that if one cut off the lever and repositioned it so it was more out of the way, that might work. If this was the case it would stick out to the side on the fire position but that would be the lesser of the 2 evils.

The safety seems to be working properly in all 3 positions. I will get used to it and am not opposed to carrying a rifle with an empty chamber.