Teflon...not just for cooking eggs anymore! And for those that may be curious...Teflon does nothing to help a bullet penetrate anything, it is used to reduce barrel wear. Laws based on Hollywood are even more ignorant than most.
FN Five Seven
- Thread starter Snake Eyez
- Start date
Having shot one in the states:
It's a completely unappealing pistol. No recoil to speak of, doesn't come close to meeting IPSC power factor and the only thing half-way interesting is the mag capacity (which we can't have). The ballistics are closer to .22lr then 9mm.
Seriously save your money. Unless you own every other modern handgun made, with every possible combination of calibers don't both with this thing.
Of course this is my opinion, feel free to spend you cash any way you see fit to be "unique".
Cheers,
Grant
It's a completely unappealing pistol. No recoil to speak of, doesn't come close to meeting IPSC power factor and the only thing half-way interesting is the mag capacity (which we can't have). The ballistics are closer to .22lr then 9mm.
Seriously save your money. Unless you own every other modern handgun made, with every possible combination of calibers don't both with this thing.
Of course this is my opinion, feel free to spend you cash any way you see fit to be "unique".
Cheers,
Grant
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^ anything in the form a fact containing rebuttal to go with that question/accusation?
.22lr: 107ft/lbs~
5.7x28: 392ft/lbs~
Perhaps I didn't express what I was thinking. The 5.7 round just doesn't have enough weight for me to consider it a potential defense round, it's a plinker with little recoil. Therefore I class it with other rounds that have no use outside the range and little recoil, like the 22lr.
However you can use .224 projectiles to reload appearently. A known subsonic loading is a Sierra Game King FMJBT 55gr .224 inch projectile. So try and find some dies (or get them made) and load away.
Cheers,
Grant
5.7x28: 392ft/lbs~
Perhaps I didn't express what I was thinking. The 5.7 round just doesn't have enough weight for me to consider it a potential defense round, it's a plinker with little recoil. Therefore I class it with other rounds that have no use outside the range and little recoil, like the 22lr.
However you can use .224 projectiles to reload appearently. A known subsonic loading is a Sierra Game King FMJBT 55gr .224 inch projectile. So try and find some dies (or get them made) and load away.
Cheers,
Grant
Two part answer...
#1 Yes it was used to reduce barrel wear...
#2 ...because the bullets used were made of brass. It was two police officers looking for a handgun round that would pentrate better than lead after passing through various materials (car windows, doors, etc...).
The media picked up on this, assumed it was the Teflon that was helping the penetration (snicker) and labeled them as cop killers (ironic?). Bingo bango...you have laws based on what the media determines is dangerous.
yes 224 projectiles as i read, redding, hornady and lee makes the dies (apperently not in their catalogue but they have them if you phone)
it'll be sensible on powder and I still haven't found brass for it, I guess only factory brass is available.
Hokus Grey
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere between "WTF?" and "FTW!".
But....but....but.... in Lethal Weapon 2.......
So thirsty..... must ....drink....Kool-Aid.......
So thirsty..... must ....drink....Kool-Aid.......
Sorry but I am gonna need you to prove that. Even the "Teflon" coating on Black Talons was just Moly IIRC.
The part in bold barely makes sense. What two police officers? Brass bullets can be had, pretty sure they aren't lubed with Teflon.
I'll give my two cents since I am kind of hijacking this thread. 5-7 has zero appeal to me with AP rounds and full size mags. I'd rather have a .22 magnum pistol. At least the ammo wouldn't be $36\50 or whatever silly price.
In 1966, the coroner of Lorain County, Ohio, Dr. Paul Kopsch, Sgt. Daniel Turcus, Jr., of the Lorain Police Dept.,. and Dr. Kopsch's special investigator, Donald Ward, decided that armor-piercing handgun cartridges could be sold to those police departments or officers that either lacked rifles or might be interested in testing special-purpose handgun ammunition. Major factories had produced such ammunition for the police for years, but interest was minimal, accounting for low sales and little attempt at improvement. Kopsch, Turcus and Ward easily succeeded in making a round that out-penetrated the tame old factory offerings.
Their original KTW bullet centered around a case-hardened steel core. Even at standard velocities, this core would obviously hold its shape and drill through automobiles, cinder blocks and other materials likely to defeat conventional police handgun loads. This was literally the core of the solution, but presented difficulties. The hard core would not take rifling and would ruin the bore. A gliding-metal jacket with full teflon coating took care of this. The round gave good penetration but poor accuracy at long range.
Then a ballistic engineer at the H.P. White Laboratories suggested that a new alloy called Kennertium W-10 be tried, instead of the steel then used, to add the ballistic stability needed for increased accuracy at long range. W- IO is a sintered tungsten alloy that is heavier than lead and harder than most steel alloys. The new material worked, but it was expensive. The expense didn't worry the developers much, since the specialty bullets would not be shot in quantity. In 1969, the prices for the 200-gr. W-10 cored, Teflon-coated .38 Spl. rounds were about six times those of conventional metal-pointed "armor-piercers" of standard make. Sales were low in volume, though relatively high in profit.
By the early 1970s, supply of Kennertium became erratic, and KTW reverted to much lighter steel and, later, brass cores, both of which reduced the maximum range to about a third of that of the former type. KTW made a plus of the reduced range by noting that long range was not necessary in this type of round and, in fact, would increase danger to bystanders in metropolitan areas. The high prices and low sales volume continued; so did the distinctive pea-green teflon coating which now formed the only protection for the bore.
The claim was made by the media that the teflon also lubricated the point of impact and increased penetration dramatically. That claim, in reference to soft body armor, was convincingly refuted by government test, with the Justice Dept. saying it "has little or no effect on the penetrating qualities of the projectile" and the Treasury Dept. labeling it as "little more than a cosmetic additive." But the fact that Teflon protects the bore from the ill effects of the hard bullet core is incontrovertible. By end of 1981, KTW was offering its products in most handgun calibers. Sales were still limited to police agencies or police officers ordering through federally licensed dealers, and were still limited in volume.
Then, in January 1982, a dramatic change occurred. KTW got national, prime-time television coverage in NBC's "Cop Killer Bullets." Law enforcement officials had pled with NBC to drop the sensational coverage of the virtually unknown bullets lest they come to the attention of criminals. NBC not only refused, but rebroadcast the show six months later. Then the print media joined in.
Of course, KTW's restricted sales policies forbade a rash of sales to criminals, but many police departments had to answer frantic questions from officers and the public concerning the implied threat. The departments didn't have data, and some set out to buy and test KTWs to see 'just what the threat was. Other small bullet makers saw the light and soon a number of KTW competitors appeared to share in police testing budgets. Hard cores were the rule, high velocities and pointed bullets were preferable, but Teflon was considered unnecessary.
Some anti-gun members of Congress saw the light too. Here was an opportunity to get all sorts of free personal publicity in all sorts of media. All they had to do was introduce a bill with a catchy title to outlaw the import, manufacture of sale of.. of what? The title, having been stolen from NBC, was easy: "A bill to stop the proliferation of 'cop-killer' bullets." "Cop-Killer" was the most exciting label to come along since "Saturday Night Special" and just as vague. Its "definition" was simply:
Any bullet that when fired from a 5" barreled handgun is capable of penetrating the equivalent of 18 layers of Kevlar. Technical experts of the FBI, BATF, Secret Service and police forensic labs throughout the country felt this definition to be impractical and unenforceable, but none of them could think of a good one.
A four-year campaign to outlaw so-called "armor-piercing" or "cop-killer" bullets began. During that time NRA-ILA successfully fought off several bills that would have had grave implications for American gun owners and dealers. August 1986 saw passage of H.R- 3121, which while symbolically offensive, greatly narrowed the definition of proscribed bullets (earlier bills threatened to outlaw up to 85% of big game ammunition), and contained no criminal penalties for dealer or private possession, transfer or use of such bullets. An exception was made for misuse in a violent federal crime.
The law defined offending bullets as "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun" and constructed entirely (except for trace elements) of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium or a combination of those metals. Further, the Secretary of the Treasury may exempt a projectile covered in the "armor-piercing" definition, but may not expand the law to include projectiles not expressly included in the established definition. - W.F.P.
Reprinted from The American Rifleman, February 1989
Their original KTW bullet centered around a case-hardened steel core. Even at standard velocities, this core would obviously hold its shape and drill through automobiles, cinder blocks and other materials likely to defeat conventional police handgun loads. This was literally the core of the solution, but presented difficulties. The hard core would not take rifling and would ruin the bore. A gliding-metal jacket with full teflon coating took care of this. The round gave good penetration but poor accuracy at long range.
Then a ballistic engineer at the H.P. White Laboratories suggested that a new alloy called Kennertium W-10 be tried, instead of the steel then used, to add the ballistic stability needed for increased accuracy at long range. W- IO is a sintered tungsten alloy that is heavier than lead and harder than most steel alloys. The new material worked, but it was expensive. The expense didn't worry the developers much, since the specialty bullets would not be shot in quantity. In 1969, the prices for the 200-gr. W-10 cored, Teflon-coated .38 Spl. rounds were about six times those of conventional metal-pointed "armor-piercers" of standard make. Sales were low in volume, though relatively high in profit.
By the early 1970s, supply of Kennertium became erratic, and KTW reverted to much lighter steel and, later, brass cores, both of which reduced the maximum range to about a third of that of the former type. KTW made a plus of the reduced range by noting that long range was not necessary in this type of round and, in fact, would increase danger to bystanders in metropolitan areas. The high prices and low sales volume continued; so did the distinctive pea-green teflon coating which now formed the only protection for the bore.
The claim was made by the media that the teflon also lubricated the point of impact and increased penetration dramatically. That claim, in reference to soft body armor, was convincingly refuted by government test, with the Justice Dept. saying it "has little or no effect on the penetrating qualities of the projectile" and the Treasury Dept. labeling it as "little more than a cosmetic additive." But the fact that Teflon protects the bore from the ill effects of the hard bullet core is incontrovertible. By end of 1981, KTW was offering its products in most handgun calibers. Sales were still limited to police agencies or police officers ordering through federally licensed dealers, and were still limited in volume.
Then, in January 1982, a dramatic change occurred. KTW got national, prime-time television coverage in NBC's "Cop Killer Bullets." Law enforcement officials had pled with NBC to drop the sensational coverage of the virtually unknown bullets lest they come to the attention of criminals. NBC not only refused, but rebroadcast the show six months later. Then the print media joined in.
Of course, KTW's restricted sales policies forbade a rash of sales to criminals, but many police departments had to answer frantic questions from officers and the public concerning the implied threat. The departments didn't have data, and some set out to buy and test KTWs to see 'just what the threat was. Other small bullet makers saw the light and soon a number of KTW competitors appeared to share in police testing budgets. Hard cores were the rule, high velocities and pointed bullets were preferable, but Teflon was considered unnecessary.
Some anti-gun members of Congress saw the light too. Here was an opportunity to get all sorts of free personal publicity in all sorts of media. All they had to do was introduce a bill with a catchy title to outlaw the import, manufacture of sale of.. of what? The title, having been stolen from NBC, was easy: "A bill to stop the proliferation of 'cop-killer' bullets." "Cop-Killer" was the most exciting label to come along since "Saturday Night Special" and just as vague. Its "definition" was simply:
Any bullet that when fired from a 5" barreled handgun is capable of penetrating the equivalent of 18 layers of Kevlar. Technical experts of the FBI, BATF, Secret Service and police forensic labs throughout the country felt this definition to be impractical and unenforceable, but none of them could think of a good one.
A four-year campaign to outlaw so-called "armor-piercing" or "cop-killer" bullets began. During that time NRA-ILA successfully fought off several bills that would have had grave implications for American gun owners and dealers. August 1986 saw passage of H.R- 3121, which while symbolically offensive, greatly narrowed the definition of proscribed bullets (earlier bills threatened to outlaw up to 85% of big game ammunition), and contained no criminal penalties for dealer or private possession, transfer or use of such bullets. An exception was made for misuse in a violent federal crime.
The law defined offending bullets as "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun" and constructed entirely (except for trace elements) of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium or a combination of those metals. Further, the Secretary of the Treasury may exempt a projectile covered in the "armor-piercing" definition, but may not expand the law to include projectiles not expressly included in the established definition. - W.F.P.
Reprinted from The American Rifleman, February 1989
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Guy at my range bring one out on occasion. Doesn't sound a lot different than the rest unless you listen for it. And not even much unusual a feel to it.
Funny little thing to shoot just to be a bit different but I can't see myself owning one unless it was available in a really accurate pistol that I could take to the gopher pastures.
Funny little thing to shoot just to be a bit different but I can't see myself owning one unless it was available in a really accurate pistol that I could take to the gopher pastures.
