free-floating barrel?

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rudar

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I have a Remington 700 BDL in .270 winchester, that's never really been much of a tack-driver (though it may also be that my skills are nothing to write home about...) I'm now loading 50 and 51 grains of H414 behind a 130gr hornady interlock, and getting 4" and 3-1/2" groups (10 shots, 100yds), respectively. I also believe (though it'll take a few more range trips to be sure...) that it shoots a couple MOA higher off sandbags than it does from field positions.

Would free-floating the barrel and glass-bedding the action be a likely way to tighten up groups on this? (and also get the sighting-in groups to land the same place as the field-position ones?) I've heard that some rifles are "meant" to have a pressure point on the barrel, and that free-floating the barrel can make it worse... Or should I just accept 4" groups as "good enough" for a hunting rifle, and work on shrinking my field-position groups, as those are what "counts", in the field?
 
I'm not an expert by any means, but been told by many that a good bedding and floating barrel is very important especially on a bolt action rifle. You should have enough room between the barrel and the fore end to pass a 5 dollar bill. I was told when you fire a rifle it does something like a whip action on the barrel thats why the barrel should be floating. If your barrel was attached to the stock you wouldn't get consistant groupings.

Making sure your bolt is true and other things to do with the reciever are also important. To start with, I would work on the bedding of the action it's also probably the least expensive thing to start with.

Just my 2 cents.



JonnyBender
 
I have a left hand 700 BDL in 270 and it shoots sub moa with handloads. But when I got it, the front of the stock was warped and pushing hard on the barrel to the left. So the channel in the stock was enlarged until the barrel free floated and it has been shooting great ever since ( over 25 years ).

I shoot sierra 130 gr SPBT gameking bullets and Nosler 130 gr combined technology bullets ( the black ones with a grey tip ).
 
IMHO this should have been done in the factory.

If I had a brand new gun that only delivered 4" groups at 100 yards it would be on it's way back to the place I bought it from.

If this is not possible then accurizing is a good idea, also check to be sure scope mounts aren't loose. :D
 
My question would be, "what are you doing different between bench shooting and field shooting as far as holding or resting the firearm?"
It's important for bench shooting that the sand bags are under the fore stock and not the barrel.
Throwing your arm through a sling to steady your rifle can make a big difference on point of impact as well if the sling is on a barrel band as well.
Just observations in the past.
Good luck.
 
Well, it was a second-hand rifle when I bought it. The scope it came with also wasn't very good, and I could not get and keep both the target and the cross-hairs in sharp focus... So I did manage to buy and have installed a new scope a couple of years back (and then kinda never got around to going shooting...), which is much better. And now, I have no money for any kind of professional work, no matter how good a deal :) But free-floating the barrel, I presume, would just be a bit of sandpaper work and then re-sealing the channel with... varnish? Oil? And glass-bedding should be within my skill range; I've done a fair bit of work with epoxies (including a stitch-and-glue canoe...)
 
Well, one obvious difference is that, with the stock resting on sandbags, there's nothing but the rifle's weight holding it down, and it does jump up a fair bit... From field positions, with a sling around my left arm, there's that holding it down, so maybe it jumps up less? But would that affect POI, or is that all occurring long after the bullet's left the barrel?
 
Firstly, a 270 and H4831 powder go together like apple pie and ice cream. I would try that powder.
However, it will not bring a 4" group down to say, 1½" Bedding is indicated.
I don't consider a free floating barrel as the end all of accuracy. Some times it is good, other times there is a lot of room for improvement.
In the glory days of shooting the concencsous of opinion was that a barrel required pressure on the front of the wood. In fact, for an average weight barrel, six pounds of pressure was considered about right. That is, it should take about six pounds to pull the barrel away from the wood. It was common for target shooters to carry a spring scale with them, so they could check tha tension on their barrel.
I have bedded quite a number of rifles, using that method, and all were successful. One was a friend who bought a new 7oo in 6mm for competetive shooting. He wasn't satisfied with it, brought it to me and I cured it.
In your case, remove the stock and carefully examine the barrel slot. Look for any spots on the barrel channel where the barrel has been rubbing, including the sides. Sand out any such spots, get the barrel free of the stock, from the chamber forward.
Put it together with the barrel not touching the wood. You can try shooting it this way. Most likely it will group better if you put a shim, maybe folded up paper, so as the barrel rests on this at the front of the forestock. Something like six pounds of pressure should pull the barrel away from your shim.
If that improved the shooting, a permanent shim could be put in, maybe made from plastic wood.
I wasn't going to painstakingly answer any more of this type question, but I appreciatted your honesty, in stating the group sizes and stating part of the problem may have been you. Everytime I look at a group I have made, I wonder what the group would have been, if I had shot it better!
 
Did you work up the load or just pick 50 and 51 grains? I'd start by changing powder and work up the load.
Floating the barrel may or may not help. The only way to find out is to try it. If it doesn't make any difference, putting a pressure point back in isn't difficlut. A bit of epoxy bedding material an inch or so aft of the end of the forestock will do it. Don't forget the release agent.
"...just be a bit of sandpaper work and then re-sealing the channel with..." Yep. Test by running a $5 bill under the barrel. It should go freely to the chamber area. Use a wood sealer.
"...groups to land the same place..." That's you. Not unusual either. You're going from a solid rest to your body holding the rifle. Use a sling and practice shooting, off hand, using a 9" pie plate at 100 yards until you can hit it every time. Work up the load first.
 
Well, I'm sorta working up a load... Changing powders probably isn't in the budget right now, and I have almost 4lbs of the H414 from higginson to burn through...

50 grains is the starting load. I had tried 4 loads at half-grains without seeing much difference. Then I kinda fell out of the sport for a long while (no car, no money for range memberships...). So I restarted with 50 and 51 grains. I suppose I could try 52 through 55, which is listed as the max. But really, it's kinda hard to tell the difference between a 3.75" group and a 4.25" one, so I thought maybe working on accurising the rifle a bit would help reduce *all* the groups, to where I could tell the difference between one load and another. Well, that and just plain shooting more, so that I get a bit better. I'll try free-floating at least, and maybe glass bedding the action if the supplies for that are affordable. And shooting a bunch more, of course.
 
H4831 said:
I wasn't going to painstakingly answer any more of this type question, but I appreciatted your honesty, in stating the group sizes and stating part of the problem may have been you. Everytime I look at a group I have made, I wonder what the group would have been, if I had shot it better!
Click to expand...


I'm ( and I'm sure I'm not the only one ) are glad you did. Your one of a number of contirbutors to this forum that help to share your wealth of knowledge.

Rudar, not trying to be rude but you mentioned your own skills so I think you can take it :). I started reloading back in February, at this point I really started concentrating on my groups. I never realised I could'nt shoot like everyone else on the internet until then. I didnt quite get 3 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards but I was certainly not producing targets I could show off.
Since then I have practiced my technique and discovered that loads that did not shoot to my satisfaction, actually DID SHOOT to my satisfaction.

In short, can you get someone else to veryfy your guns capabilities?

good luck.
 
OK, my .02$...Ya, get someone else to try a couple of groups and see if the result is the same. Also you say that 50g is the starting load...I would load load from starting to max ( or maybe .5g under) and see if the groups change, even at 50y you should be able to see a differnence. I know you say $ is tight, ain't it always!!, but you might try a box of cheap factory ammo and see what it does with that...at least the velocities should be close to max with the factory loads and I'm wondering if you might be running just a little slow. By the way, is there any pattern to your 4" group? Have a look at your targets and see if the pattern repeats it's self...if so then the gun is "talking" to you at least a bit. If it's just hell mell all over the place then something is wrong. I have one gun right now that is chucking stuff around the bull, but the patten is there, so I just have to find what it likes to eat. If the pattern repeats it's self over and over again, then you are actually shooting very well, but the gun/load is not right and the rig is not "happy".
 
Yeah, good point. I had at some point thought getting somebody competent to shoot my gun would be good... I am certainly still somewhat new to this, but did burn my way through 4 lbs of my previous powder (a mil-surp from Higginsons... none available when I bought the next batch, so I had to switch...), so hopefully I've got *some* practice under my belt...

Last weekend, I shot 2 5-shot groups with each of my two loads. Each 5-shot group was between 2 and 3.5" in about the same place; the 10-shot groups were the combination of the 5-shot groups for each load, and measured roughly 3.5 and 4". They may be a bit wider across than they are tall up-and-down. And they're both in pretty much exactly the same area compared to the bulls-eye (just over 2" high, which is where I want them, and an inch or two to the right, which I don't.)

Not sure what you mean by pattern, other than that. Lee's reloading book lists 53.5 (I rechecked and the 55 I said earlier was in error) as the max load, so sure I could load up some 53s before next time. It'll take a while; I dunno if I'll make it to the range next weekend or the one after. Perhaps worth another range trip and maybe asking someone to shoot my gun, before I start taking sandpaper to it, hmmm? I suppose shooting over a chrony wouldn't hurt, either, if I happen to run into some generous soul with one...
 
By pattern I mean where the 5 shots hit in the group...is it 2 together and then 3 together or 4 together and 1 moves off one side or the other. If the "pattern" is there then the gun is at least doing the same thing each time. Sounds like you have a repeatable pattern and the rounds are hitting near the same place on the target, not wandering all over the place. You mentioned they hit 2" high, so that's 12 o'clock and all your groups are landing around there then that's good, means they have the same point of impact ,POI. If they where landing all over the place, some at 12, some at 3, some at 7, then the problem is harder to figure out. Sounds like your gun shoots to the same place most times so maybe this isn't a major problem. I'd get a buddy to shoot a few groups and really look at buying a box of factory to compare with yours. Yes a chrony would help here too. If the factory is no better then the reloads AND your buddy shoots the same groups as you then I'd free float and bed the gun. In my experience, and it's not that grand compared to some guys on this site, so take it with a grain of salt....I've never had a gun shoot worse after bedding and floating, one or two didn't shoot any better, but it never hurt. You can always put the pressure point back in if the floating makes it shoot worse.
 
Try a different powder/bullet. I have had a few guns that were not floated and they still managed to shoot 1.5" consistently...
 
I am suspicious of a few things.

Your load may or may not be a good one. Since you have a good supply of H-414 you could perfrom a 100 yard ladder test ( go to http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#/ocw-vs-ladder/4529811360 for an explanation) with incrementally loads varied from 48-52 grains (in 1/2 grain or smaller increments). If you don't find a reasonable load you most likely have a rifle or other (scope/mounts)issue.

Poor bedding or barrel pressure points may be contributing to the poor accuracy or not...Hard to say. When I have a barrel floated I do it for consistency not necessarily for the pure accuracy improvement.

Get some wipe out bore cleaner and leave it (soaking wet) in the bore overnight. If your rifle is well used this could be the problem.


If you are unsure weather you are the problem or not...You probably need some help.
Where do you live?
I'd be happy to help if you ever come to Vancouver Island.
 
I had a 700 BDL 300mag that shot OK. All I did to free float the gun was took some old credit cards and cut some small square pieces (1 -1.1/4") drilled a hole in the center of them. I used about 3or4 pieces and fit them in between the stock and barrel put the stock screw threw them and fastened the barrel (freefloated for free). Groups were far more tighter than I expected.
 
what kind of trigger pull does your rifle have.light,medium, heavy.I have a 700 bdl in 30-06 which shot 2.5" to 3.5" 5 shot groups.the trigger was so heavy it was impossible to shot any kind of atight group.if you cocked the rifle unloaded and stood it on the muzzle you could lift the rifle by the trigger and it would not fire.I replaced the trigger with a timmney and floated the barrel it now shoots a resepectable 1" 5 shoot group.a replacement trigger is something you might consider down the road.
 
Hmmm. That is another consideration, to be sure... Again, I haven't shot enough different rifles that I'd be able to say how it compares, and I don't have a trigger pull gauge or anything... But it does fire before lifting the entire rifle's weight. So maybe we can guess at "medium"? Something else to ask someone with more experience about, when getting them to try shooting a group, I guess.
 
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